Latest find after the S O S 2021 Hessian I R 117 ersatz

SkipperJohn

Well-known member
When did Hesse begin using this type of Kokarde? A single red ring serrated Kokarde is used by Bremen. I thought that Hesse used a white serrated, or non-serrated, Kokarde with a double red ring. I have never seen this non-serrated, single ring, Kokarde before. I obviously need some further education on this.

John
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
Good spot John. I looked at that helmet for over an hour and could see nothing wrong with it at all.

But I completely missed the Kokarde.

kokarden2.jpg
 
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SkipperJohn

Well-known member
I don't know if this Kokarde is incorrect or not. As Tony's chart points out Hesse used a single red ring on Kokarden for hats and caps. Maybe they did use this type of Kokarde later, after 1915? I have never seen a Hessen Kokarde like this one, but I have also never seen a Bremen Kokarde that was not serrated.
Steve, if you get a chance, please post a photo of this Kokarde on the Kokarden thread. I would love to see the discussion.

John
 

coert65

Well-known member
Well John, this is the kokarde on my 1915 Hessen. I would not know if they used the kokarden Steve has posted, but I do not think it should be any different than my kokarde on my M15 Hessen. I have seen more felt Hessen for sale with the same type of kokarden as I have on my M15.
Then again, I am not sure.
 

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SkipperJohn

Well-known member
I agree with you Coert.
It seems; however, that every time I think I know the answer something new comes along.
I recently found this Kokarde listed as Hessen:

ANACEit.jpg


It is unusual and could be Bremen or Hessen or fake. I don't know.
If it is Hessen it could be the same kind Steve has. The small inner red ring would be covered up by the M91 chinstrap fastener.
I don't own anything Hessen, and I didn't buy this Kokarde, so I have nothing to compare it to.

John
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Interesting point . I looked long and hard at the helmet before I bought it .I did NOT notice the kokard had only 1 ring .
I thought that the free cities Bremen : Hamburg & Lubeck had serrated edges like Prussian kokards . I do plan to ask the seller about the question . My question is ; Bremen is one regiment ; thus their kokard would be much rarer and hard to find .
So why put that on as a Hessian kokard when there were several Hessian regiments ? Of course if the kokard is incorrect
that makes my thought a mute point .Yes , Tony I asked you about the helmet but we were focused on other points . I feel
that if it is wrong I can located a Hessian kokard for it .I really like the helmet .John thanks for the question .Also Tony & Bruno for the comments .Let's see how it comes out .Thanks
Steve
 

911car

Well-known member
I agree with John that Bremen cockades were normally serrated. Therefore, there is a doubt. On the other hand, JL Larcade writes that Hessian cockades were always serrated, for both enlisted men and officers. I have occasionally seen, like everyone else, these simplified serrated white/red/white Hessian cockades with only one red ring, but never saw one that was convincingly authentic.
 

SkipperJohn

Well-known member
I agree with John that Bremen cockades were normally serrated. Therefore, there is a doubt. On the other hand, JL Larcade writes that Hessian cockades were always serrated, for both enlisted men and officers. I have occasionally seen, like everyone else, these simplified serrated white/red/white Hessian cockades with only one red ring, but never saw one that was convincingly authentic.
None of the Hessen Kokarden shown here are serrated:
And none of the Bremen Kokarden shown here are non-serrated:

I agree with you, but I don't agree with Larcade in this case.

John
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Bruno ;
I just sent an email on another matter
When you get a chance for a reply
Thanks
Steve
 
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