Latest find after the S O S 2021 Hessian I R 117 ersatz

Steve, I am sorry, I used the wrong word, my mistake. I did not mean "serrated" at all...
I meant, these concentric grooves typical of Hessian cockades. I cannot find the right name for it (in French, "rubanne")...
 
"Ribbon". That I agree with. Smooth edge and ribbon like appearance.
All of the Hessen Kokarden that I have seen resemble the "ribbon" type without serration.

John
 
Like this John.

How did I not see the Kokarde was not Hessen?

Sorry Steve, I was so focused on the Wappen, fittings and liner etc. I missed the painfully obvious.

dbh61k.jpg
 
SkipperJohn said:
"Ribbon". That I agree with. Smooth edge and ribbon like appearance.
All of the Hessen Kokarden that I have seen resemble the "ribbon" type without serration.

John
Click to expand...
Yes, ruban = ribbon.
"Rubanne" (with an accent on the e) means "resembling a ribbon", "in the shape of a ribbon". The english equivalent would be "ribbonned". Not sure this word exists...
 
For something to do I checked where I think that I can see the most Hessian e m helmets at one time .
The site of Helmut Weitze . The late great Hessian collector in Calif was Lector Orrick but his collection was
sold and I heard that he is gone
Here is what I saw ; e m helmets only
# 291565 correct kokard
#333573 early helmet serrated edges one red ring
# 291551 2 red rings
#342088 M1871 one kokard only 2 red rings
# 312606 serrated edge one red ring
# 290841 2 red rings
# 370288 feldgrau helmet ; 2 red rings like coert 's helmet
Can there be that many Hessian e m helmets without the "standard "
Hessian kokard ?
Or is there something we need to find out ?
we are not talking about a one regiment kokard
Thanks
Steve
 
That is part of the reason I brought up the question in the first place. The helmet you bought is absolutely pristine so why would anyone suspect that the Kokarde was incorrect? As you mentioned Bremen had only one regiment, IR75 (and the third battalion was manned by Prussia), so those Kokarden are more expensive and harder to find. I would reason that your Kokarde is, in fact, correct and we just need to learn more about it. When you look at the Kokarden thread in this forum you find that some of the German States (Saxony and Bavaria in particular) have many variations on the Kokarden they used. I suspect Hesse did the same thing.

John
 
Here is another hessian Helmet with a hessian cockade with only one ring at weitze.net
Hessian_Pickelhaube 117
It is also a helmet of the IR 117.

In the Hessian constitution I found §63, according to which the contingent chief could determine the appearance of the cockade (Link:Hessian constitution, Page 19, §63)
Maybe he was relaxed according to this topic…in contrast to the Prussians, the Hessians were a bit more liberal and don't see regulations as narrowly.
 
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So I have sent emails to two people who I hope will add comment to the question .One of my friends
has and has seen more helmets than any collector that I know . He has a complete collection .If I find anything
new I will post it .
Thanks for all the feedback
Steve
 
SkipperJohn said:
The helmet you bought is absolutely pristine so why would anyone suspect that the Kokarde was incorrect?
Click to expand...
I would be the first one to suspect it is not original, even though it may be correct. Except for rare cases when provenance can be precisely traced, I would never assume that mobile, easily lost parts such as cockades or chinstraps are original to EM helmets purchased from collectors or dealers over a century after WW1. I can still remember this militaria dealer in Strasbourg, who always had a large selection of EM spiked helmets. Once I questioned the originality of a cockade on a helmet he had for sale. He went: "No problem, choose which ever cockade you want", showing half a dozen other helmets from the same state. He took one on another Pickelhaube, and placed it on the one I had in my hands.
 
911car said:
I would be the first one to suspect it is not original, even though it may be correct. Except for rare cases when provenance can be precisely traced, I would never assume that mobile, easily lost parts such as cockades or chinstraps are original to EM helmets purchased from collectors or dealers over a century after WW1. I can still remember this militaria dealer in Strasbourg, who always had a large selection of EM spiked helmets. Once I questioned the originality of a cockade on a helmet he had for sale. He went: "No problem, choose which ever cockade you want", showing half a dozen other helmets from the same state. He took one on another Pickelhaube, and placed it on the one I had in my hands.
Click to expand...
I never meant to suggest that it was original to the helmet. I would imagine that Kokarden got mixed up even in the trenches. I am only suggesting that the Kokarde may be an original piece and correct for the time period. It seems we have uncovered a mystery on what Cockades were, and were not, authorized and used by Hesse. It seems that there are several examples indicating that both were used.

John
 
Just a newbie but Tony's chart shows this type of kakarde as Bremen but "Hessen Caps." This kokarde is obviously for a helmet and not a cap given the size, but.... I can follow the logic of it being Hessen (albeit for caps) and so used on this helmet.

I think it's there because it probably always was. Just sayin'

Peter
 
As Bruno says ; there are very few helmets where we can know the kokards are original to the helmet .
There are some that can be .
Officers kokards often stick to the leather body sides .Sometimes slight tares in the cardboard back
stick to the leather .Brian probably knows this better than most as he works on helmets all the time .
I think the main point is if the kokard is correct to a helmet .Example I have an example of Hamburg
I R 76 .The helmet is Kammer issue and marked and has the correct kokard . But do I know it is
the same kokard that was the helmet form day 1 ? No
SteveI R 76 Hamburg.jpeg
I R 76 Kammer.jpeg
 
update ;
here is what my collector friend had to say ;

I have never seen a cocarde that colour and that round shape, the colours are Lubeck I think and the style is Sachsen

He means one of the 3 Free Cities one without the cross

So I begin to vote for an incorrect kokard on the helmet .It is in the Saxon style .Again different from what I
know as normal where the edges are serrated.
Steve
 
update # 2 .I just got an email from the seller.
Here is what he had to say
You are right about the cocarde: this one is Bremen for the Inf. Rgt. 75. Please return it in a registered letter and we will send you a correct one to get your helmet complete.

So I will get a correct Hessian kokard to complete the helmet .
Thanks to John for the question
Steve
 
A sweet outcome indeed. A friend of mine in Europe with exceptional expertise (by the way, he also knows Steve's collector friend very well...) saw the cockade. His response was laconic. Translated, something like "No way"....
 
Not to change the subject, but to put a new twist on it, I am looking for a Bremen Kokarde.
Please ask him how much he wants for it.
It is non-serrated, so I'm still not sure what it is.

John
 
There is still a chance that I could buy it ?
I will ask the price
What should I consider a price to pay for it ?
I don't expect a bargain
as it is rare
Steve
 
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