Lippe Fur Fuerst or Fur Koenig ????

B

Broadsword

New member
Is this correct Fur Fuerst or should it be Fur Koenig?

According to Thomas Stubb's book it should be Fur Koenig.

I am confused can any one help on this?



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The Reiner Herrmann reference also indicates the motto is für Koenig, but this would be from the period when Schaumburg-Lippe wore a Prussian Line Eagle.

I have seen a Wappen like this offered by der Kammerbulle and identified as "Flugeladjutant of the Duke." It also features the Fuerst bandau.

http://www.kammerbulle.de.vu/

Beyond this, I can offer no further information.

Chas.
 
Thanks for that information Chas.
Thats useful. I must say I can not see any signs of tampering and the rest of the helmet appears OK, but it is difficult to be sure these days.
 
Casques a Point and Das Deutsche Heer both state that Flugeladjutant for Lippe would use "Konig und Vaterland". If this is the helmet that Malcom Fisher was selling a few years back, I'm afraid the helmet is a put-together. The plate has been kicking around since the early 1990s, when I had the opportunity to buy it when the "Infamous Bowman" was moving some of his crap. At that time, it was on a very beat-up late-war Bavarian helmet. The plate has been "upgraded" to a much cleaner, nicer Bavarian helmet over the years. I think I can find the pictures I took of the front and back of the plate when it was offered to me, if interested.

Regards

Dave
 
Dave,

Your bang on target mate.

Could you post your photos for comparison?

What is it with Mr Bowman, why is he such a bad boy?

Many thanks for the information I owe you several beers and the rest.
 
why is he such a bad boy?
Click to expand...

Why? Good question. Why are so many people trying to scam folks? Money I suppose. We all get fooled that is the value of getting more eyes on the target. You did a great job with pictures.
 
Just to add my two cents worth...... I must agree with Dave that this is a made up helmet. I had this helmet in my possession a couple of years ago and went through all sorts of hoops to get my money back. I went so far as to contact the Lippe museum to support my claim. Unfortunately most of the points that I made were corrected and the helmet was again offered on his web page. It seems that the Lippe Gendarmerie also wore this helmet plate so I think that this is what we are dealing with here.
The Flugeladjutanten had the Konig motto on a dragoon eagle from 1876 to 1912. In 1912 it was changed to a guarde eagle with the Fuerst motto as shown on your helmet.
The big problem with the helmet shown here is the quality of the fittings and plate. Flugeladjutanten were nobility or close to it which would be reflected in the quality of their helmets.
I hate it when these helmets keep resurfacing. Bill
 
Bill, as Dave earlier said, Larcade writes that the post-1912 helmet bore the guard eagle with the regular "...Koenig..." motto. Was he wrong?..
Bruno
 
Bruno,
Larcade describes the pre 1912 helmet having the Koenig motto with the Dragoon eagle. He goes on to describe the changes after 1912.... replacing the Dragoon eagle with the Garde eagle but makes no comment as to the motto. Hilsenbeck in "Deutsche Offizierhelme aus der Kaiserzeit" shows both helmets. The post 1912 example has the fuerst motto.
I will try to have Joe post a picture that I have of the "real deal" from the Lippe Landsmuseum in Detmold. Bill
 
In fact he does, Bill. He says that the guard eagle has the regular prussian scroll (I will have to check exactly his words).
Bruno
 
Just to throw some more gas on the fire, Das Deutsche Heer states that the "Mit Gott Fur Konig Und Vaterland" bandeau on the silver guard eagle was also used for Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen, Schaumburg-Lippe and Waldeck as well as Lippe....

Dave
 
Bruno, Dave
Thank you Joe for posting the two pictures. The picture of the Lippe helmet that Joe posted has quality that you would expect of a Flugeladjutanten. Note the silver star studs. The motto is not shown but reads Fuerst. The people at the Lippisches Landes-museum told me that they knew of three helmets in this form. One is in the Lippisches Land-museum in Detmold, another in the army museum in Rastatt and a third in a private collection. My picture is from the helmet in a private collection. The helmet from the Landes-museum is pictured in Hilsenbeck pg.30. Both have the Fuerst motto. I have no information or pictures of the helmet in the museum in Rastatt.
The picture of the text is from Deutsche Heereskunde and describes the helmet before 1912. On the bottom of the page it describes the form after 1912 but makes no mention of the motto (If I am translating correctly). Joe could you zoom in on the bottom of the page and post that section?
As to Larcade the text reads: " De 1912 a 1918: la plaque du casque modele 1876 est modifiee en 1912. Le motif central ne change pas mais l'angle des dragons est remplace par le grand aigle (argente) de la Garde prussienne, avec devise prussienne" I translate this as: The plate of the helmet model 1876 is modified in 1912. The central device does not change. ( ie. Lippe rose) The eagle of the dragoon is replaced by the large eagle of the Prussian Guarde....... with the prussian devise. Brunno are you translating "avec devise prussienne" to mean with the prussian motto? I need someone who is fluent in French to help with this.
Dave could you post the German text of Das Deutsche Heer?
All of this very interesting..... maybe we should contact Larcade and ask him. Is he still with us? Bill
 
"Avec devise prussienne" translates: bearing the prussian motto.
Sadly, Larcade passed away last year.
Thanks to all for this interesting discussion.
Bruno
 
Bill:

Here is the verbage for the helmet plates for the "Flugeladjutanten der anderen deutschen Bundesfursten" from Das Deutsche Heer.





 
Joe, Did you get this picture from Randy? I just fired off an e-mail to the museum in Rastatt asking about the motto. We will see if they reply. Bill
 
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