LIR 87

R

Robert

New member
There is always some confusion in the Hessen/Nassau vicinity and evidently it extended into the Landwehr as well. Besides some nice steel helmets these fellows display a mixture of plates and cockades. Particularly you can also see both state cockades worn in parallel. Some don't even have a state cockade at all. The men don't seem to be very concerned about this though.

I don't know much about LIR 87 at all. It seems that their garnisons were located in Mainz and Worms, which would mean that unlike their parent regiment they were actually raised in Hessen-Darmstadt. It also seems more likely that Prussia provided helmets for a Hessian unit with preliminarily incomplete state markings than finding Hessian markings on a Prussian unit.

On the other hand, the picture was taken in Hofheim/Taunus according to the tablet, which was located in Hessen-Nassau. The card is addressed to Sindlingen am Main (today a destrict of Frankfurt/Main) which belonged to Hessen-Nassau as well.

LIR87 fought at the Hartwannsweilerkopf during 1916-1918 but I have no information about their activities in 1915. Probably they were in training because some men still have M71 rifles.

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Again with the help of my mother I managed to read most of the short letter on the back. It is dated March, 25th 1915 and the writer says that their unit is departing to the front "today".

From what I could research, LIR87 participated in the fighting at the Hartmannsweilerkopf beginning in April 1915. Shortly before, they saw a major restructuring. Evidently only two battalions remained and a third was added from some other regiment. If perhaps this other btl. came from a Hessian regiment, then that would explain much of the confusion.
 
A mixture of Gew 71s & 88s too, it would appear it was "first in - best dressed" in LIR 87. Thanks Robert.

- Brett
 
Robert, Perhaps you may contact the German, Hartmannswillerkopf researcher, Hans Peter Tombi, via http://www.hartmannsweilerkopf.com/ ?
This man has published several books about the HWK and exploits an interesting website (see above).
I would not be amazed, if this man of knowledge could help you out with this. If you are interested, Robert, I will send his personal e-mail adress via PM.
 
This one is so confusing I have no idea who was on first base! First the picture is so good especially with the cockades that I am having real postcard envy! But this unit is a very very tough nut to crack. It seems as though it was a four battalion regiment. Two of the Battalions went one way and two the other way. At the end of the day it seems as though when it became a three battalion organization it got the second Battalion from Mecklenburg!!

The commanders came from Soest and Erbach Bez. and they were definitely aligned with Hessian regiments. They don't seem to have had anything to do with JR 87 but some interesting alignments with RJR 30/69,L

iR76. so who set their uniform?? This one is a good question.
 
I contacted Mr. Tombi who is an extremely friendly man but had not further information either, although he is very interested in the topic as well. Now in an old thread of the Great war forum, I read the following. There was no source stated so I really can't tell anything:

In March 1915, the battalions I./L.I.R.Nr. 87 and IV./L.I.R.Nr. 87 remained with the 12. L.Div and formed the new regiment Moß. Additionally, the V./L.I.R.Nr. 76 was added to this regiment. The former II./L.I.R.Nr. 87 became the new III./R.I.R.Nr. 17 and the former III./L.I.R.Nr. 87 became the new III./R.I.R.Nr. 30.

The newly restructured LIR87 comprised:
I./L.I.R.Nr. 87
II./L.I.R.Nr. 87 (former V./L.I.R.Nr. 76)
III./L.I.R.Nr. 87 (former IV./L.I.R.Nr. 87)

This seems extremely confusing to me - did single battalions really change between regiments of different states?

For the picture, this theory would leave three possibilities:

1. This is company 9 of the old III./L.I.R.Nr. 87, before restructuring. Mixture of insignia is due to shortage.
2. This is company 9 of the old III./L.I.R.Nr. 87, after restructuring. The men have been assigned to RIR30 which is, as I understand, Prussian. So they are actually in the process of changing their insignia to Prussian?
3. This is company 9 of the new III./L.I.R.Nr. 87, former IV./L.I.R.Nr. 87.
 
Those sources from the old Busche manuscript. It gets even more complex when you take a look at the entries for LJR76. This is a really weird one which seems to be a five battalion regiment from Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

We have a lot of pictures where the Prussian and the Hessian wappen are mixed within a unit. Therefore, I think it is a shortage issue like your choice number one. I wonder -- and we will never know -- if there is some significance to the differences in cockade?

All of these units were part of the Prussian contingent. Nonetheless, Hesse and Mecklenburg-Strelitz both maintained a sort of quasi-war Minister. So it becomes a question of where did they get their equipment from. I don't know. I also do not know who set their uniform regulations. One thing I do know is that it seems as though JR 87 and L. JR 87 have nothing to do with one another.
 
Those sources from the old Busche manuscript
Click to expand...
That would be "Formationsgeschichte der deutschen Infanterie im Ersten Weltkrieg" - it is mentioned there but in another post. I will have to get that book.

Probably I am putting too much logic into this anyway. Assuming that every helmets was initially delivered with cockades, why would men with (correct) Hessian helmets remove theirs? Why would at the same time other men with incorrect Prussian cockades keep theirs on?

There is also an addition to the address block that I dont understand. It looks like "1. Rang.." or does it mean "1 Komp.."?
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Oh and here is a stamp from the Gentleman's Military Interest Club indicating that this very company was attached to R.Div 15 instead of L.Div12. Time to get hilarious :tard:
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Robert said:
There is also an addition to the address block that I dont understand. It looks like "1. Rang.." or does it mean "1 Komp.."?
lir87address.jpg
Click to expand...

that is 1. Komp Interesting, as the photo has 9. Komp and the post mark is 9. Komp
Gus
 
Check your e-mail -- it looks like the first company to me.
Click to expand...
Thanks! :thumbright:
I will be an a long train journey tomorrow, maybe I find the time to put the pieces together to a single document and make a clean PDF of it.

I could not identify the second word after "1. Komp" (or whatever it means). I guess I'll be taking it to my mom's again next weekend.
 
Hey Robert,
Could you post the full text of the card, sometimes it hwlps to see more of the script to understand a questionable word.
Gus
 
Here are Heinrichs greetings back home..

The PDF will take a while because the document has manual formatting without any styles, the original table of contents was done by hand! We love this kind of work at my job. I have to put a lithe more time into it in order to at least have a workable TOC.

lir87_ruecks.jpg
 
OK, this makes me feel stupid but evidently the last line simply reads

1. Komp. Hofheim (the "m" is a bit faded)

Hofheim is also the location noted on the tablet in the picture. My only guess is that the men from the 9. comp. (3. battalion) of LIR87 have been assigned to RIR30 as Busche states, and now called their unit the 1. company of their battalion in Hofheim. Maybe it was not clear to them yet which battalion number they would get in RIR30.

In the end, instead of clearing up anything the card only documents the confusion.
 
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