M15 Bluse - Saxon 22nd Pioneer Battalion

F

flasheart

Member
Chaps,

Here is a recent acquisition. Looks like it went through the Somme, Verdun and Passchendaele - very 'trenchy' feel about it.

The wool is the coarsest tunic material I have seen, particularly in the worn areas, it has lost all the 'fluffiness' you expect in wool. Still a ribbed type pattern. Several 'darning repairs' to keep the tunic serviceable. I wonder if it is a late war piece utilising lower quality fabric.

I have checked it against my references and it looks absolute standard issue M15 Bluse in every detail, right down to the reinforcement stitching. No belthooks but you can see where they were removed and the holes sewn up - I am guessing a field modification to take uncomfortable metal items out of the tunic. The only markings I can see are the '228' and the '4'. The collar is basically the same as the tunic material, no facing.

What do you think?

Mike

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The belt hook's removed is intersting .I think maybe removed ofr post war use, ie civilian wear. The webbing at the back is very unwielding and heavy and would droop with out the rear hooks.
nice looking tunic
Mark
 
flash,

Zipper is correct, I think. These modifications would most likely not be done to a field tunic during the war. The side hooks and belt ramps were very important for weight distrobution and no soldier would have removed them. Besides, a soldier that did this would catch all sorts of grief from his superiors.

If the collar is original to the tunic, then it has to be a Bavarian piece.

In addition, the barrel cuffs have been removed and the under collar button has been replaced.

Chip
 
There is a faint but distinct line where the barrel cuffs used to be. The lower part of the sleeve around the cuff is a slightly different different colour from fading. The belt ramps/hooks have also been removed and the holes sewn up - whether a wartime mod or postwar mod, no way to tell, although it looks like field expedient sewing. I cannot see any trace of the Bavarian blue/white piping along the edge of the collar, although in many photos even Bavarian troops do not have any piping.

Under UV light and in the flash-photos there are faint traces of other stampings but not readable. I think the liner is too worn and washed too many times to retain the stamps.

Mike
 
Mike,

By the December of 1917 the Bavarian braid had been ordered shortened to just a vertical strip on the front edge of the collar. Though I have not been able to find the order yet, it is well known that the Bavarians discontinued the braid altogether some time in 1918 due to the availability of raw materials.

Chip
 
I think the tunic a good piece . thought maybe it was re adjusted by the soldier for home wear , as many did in other countries .
I think most States stopped using Identifiable braiding by 1917 . Maybe even earlier,
mark
 
Guys,

Though I have pointed out some things that might be construed as derogatory, I was merely examining the differences between this tunic and what it had been when issued. We know there were alterations, we just don't know when they were done. There is no question that it was definitely well worn and most likey during wartime.

All in all, I think this tunic makes a good display piece.

Regarding other states discontinuing braiding, I know of no others that wore state colored braid similar to the Bavarians, unless we are including one year volunteer cording, which was discontinued by decree shortly after the war began. I disagree with the notion that the Bavarian braid was discontinued before it was ordered to be so, as both the physical evidence and the photographic evidence do not seem to support it.

Best regards,
Chip
 
Gents,

I thought that the tunic was devoid of depot markings until I took a flash-photo of the '228' stamp. Above it I noticed a very faint and worn depot stamp that looks like 'BA XIX 18'. Became clearer with some contrast and colour adjustment. Photos attached, the stamp is orientated left to right and is immediately above the '228' . XIX would make it a Saxon regiment. The 1918 date would explain the coarseness of the fabric. Did Saxon regiments delete the requirement for facing on the collar late in the war? I would appreciate any input on this one, including the other visible stamps: '228' and '4'.

Mike


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To my knowledge, the Bavarians were the only contingent that wore the collar in the same color material as the rest of the tunic. If your interpretation of the markings is correct, then the collar must have been altered. It is obvious that the button underneath the collar has been replaced and the strip of cloth that buttons to it does not look quite right either.

I could take some photos of the collars on my two Bluse when I get home next week, if you would like to see what they look like.

Chip
 
Chip,

I have checked the markings and the collar under UV, bright light, flash photography, magnifying glass and 30x microscope. I am 90% cetain that the marking is 'BA XIX 18'. I hypothesised that it could be 'BA III 18' but the form of the corps numerals doesn't fit, definitely a 'XIX'.

As for the collar and the throat closure, even under 30x magnification they appear to be of identical cloth. I would estimate that if not from the same bolt of cloth, they are basically identical in colour, weave pattern, degree of wear. They certainly look like they were there throughout the working life of this tunic.

Was the manufacture of the Bluse simplified at any time in 1918? Perhaps deleting the requirement for a different facing material on the collar?

What about in the Weimar Army, were the Bluse re-used? What collar pattern was used in the Army?

Mike
 
flasheart said:
Was the manufacture of the Bluse simplified at any time in 1918? Perhaps deleting the requirement for a different facing material on the collar?
Click to expand...
No. Only the Bayern Armee had collars in the same cloth. Everyone else remained with green collars. What changed, was the quality of the cloth.

flasheart said:
What about in the Weimar Army, were the Bluse re-used? What collar pattern was used in the Army?
Click to expand...

Weimar Bluse had the collars replaced with green collars again, but with pointed fronts vs. rounded. Patch pockets with scalloped flaps were added to the upper chest, and the lower pocket flaps were given scallops.
 
Definitely a 'BA XIX 18'. So, a Feldbluse, apparently of the Bavarian-issue pattern, issued in one of the Saxon Corps.

The '228' is probably a 22P, don't know what that means.
 
Chip,

Sounds like a possibility. Are Pioneer Battalion depot marks ever written in the form '22P'? I have seen 'PB 4' etc on helmets, but then sometimes the infantry regiments are marked 107R, 133R etc (these are depicted in Joe's depot marking article).

Now I just need an explanation for a Bavarian-type tunic to be issued from a Saxon depot to a soldier in 22nd Pioneer Battalion.

Does anybody have a set of belt ramps and hooks to return this tunic back to the issued condition?

Mike
 
The "Resedagrün" or insignia cloth material of a non-Bavarian M15 tunic was sewn over a field gray collar. If you turn such a collar up, you can see that the material is just covering about 1/2" of the back of the collar.

The answer to your question is that the green collar material was removed at some point, thus leaving the underlying field gray cloth. That is why it matches the rest of the tunic in color and age.

The appropriate side hooks and belt ramps will not be easy to find.

Chip
 
Chip,

I do not have a Prussian Bluse to compare it to but I do have a couple of M15 Greatcoats. The collar already has a feldgrau wool facing cloth, same as the tunic material, that folds over the edge of the collar by about 1/2". I checked the greatcoats and they have the green facing cloth that folds over the edge, but they do not have a feldgrau fold over and a green foldover; ie the collar is two layers of wool deep, not three. Is the collar on a non-Bavarian Bluse 3 layers of wool thick?

There is no sign of any additional facing cloth or stitching lines having ever been on this tunic collar and the area of heaviest wear is around the inside of the collar as you would expect.

I would be fairly certain that this collar facing has always been there and that it has never been covered with an additional layer.

Is it not possible that in the final year of the war, when this tunic was manufactured, that there were opportunities for units to receive patterns that were not 100% correct but still serviceable combat uniforms.

There was significant inter-mixing and contracting between the allied conitngents in WW1 For example, I have a British 1902 pattern SD that was issued to a Canadian soldier in 27th Bn. Australian soldiers wore British manufactured versions of the standard tunic. Belgian soldiers used British equipment. I would be less surprised if German soldiers were using a tunic pattern that differed only in the facing material of the collar. I am just speculating here but I suspect that the explanation for the Bavarian tunic with Saxon markings may be very simple.


Mike
 
Mike,

Of course, anything is possible. I am at somewhat of a disadvantage in trying to help you sort this out, in that I don't have the tunic to inspect. Based on what you have said, I have no more suggestions of possible senarios.

I have seen instances where odd combinations have occurred. A collector in Australia had a Bavarian doctor's Bluse, which had the Bavarian boards, medical collar patches and Bavarian braid on a Resedagrün collar! I am relatively sure that it had never been tampered with.

Chip
 
Mike,

Thanks for the additional photos. As previously mentioned, the "Deutsche Mode" button is non-regulation. Does the crown button have a covered reverse or is it open? For an issue piece, it should be open. Closed back buttons were private purchase.

I got out my Bavarian and Prussian Blusen to see what they looked like in comparision. The Bavarian issue tunic is in mint condition and has never been altered. It does not have a fold over at all!

I will try to take a few pictures outdoors tomorrow so you can see what my two examples look like. My Prussian Bluse is a late model with rough wool, pot medal front fly buttons (issue and correct), civilian cloth lining (black with white pinstripes!) and no tab or button for closing the collar. It is very late in my opinion, but the markings are less ledgible than the ones in your tunic. They are much darker, but are smudged. Once again, nothing is missing or has been altered.

Chip
 
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