M15 JzP Officer Kokarden?

Steve Nick

Steve Nick

Well-known member
I have had these Kokarden for many years and have been curious about them.

Given that Kurassier officer Kokarden have only a single silver ring and since these Kokarden have double silver rings I'm concluding that they must have been intended for Jager zu Pferde officers ? This conclusion is based on their being 67mm dia. and being found on Metalhelme only?

Interested in your thoughts.
 

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Steve Nick said:
I have had these Kokarden for many years and have been curious about them.

Given that Kurassier officer Kokarden have only a single silver ring and since these Kokarden have double silver rings I'm concluding that they must have been intended for Jager zu Pferde officers ? This conclusion is based on their being 67mm dia. and being found on Metalhelme only?

Interested in your thoughts.
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Steve, cockades were the same on JzP and Kuerassier officer helmets.
 
911car said:
Steve, cockades were the same on JzP and Kuerassier officer helmets.
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Not a wasted day then. I learned something. I knew that was the case for Kurassiers but didn't realise it applied to JzP as well.

Any thoughts as to which units would have used these?
 
Steve Nick said:
Any thoughts as to which units would have used these?
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Not really... the first question is about the large hole. I do not know of "M15" versions of these cavalry officer helmets, as existed in the infantry, with M91 posts. However, a Kuerassier or JzP Faehnrich or OYV could wear a hybrid enlisted/officer helmet with, notably, officer-type cockades on M91 posts. However, these should still bear, in theory, the single silver ring...
 
I found that JL Larcade does describe the existence of a late, wartime model of Kurassier officer helmet with an entirely detachable spike, and a simple leather chinstrap. I have never seen one, but this would imply the presence of M91 posts, and hence of cockades with large holes. The question of the double silver ring on your cockades remains open though.
 
This is what has had me intrigued about these Kokarden. They are clearly meant to be used on the M91 post and would seem to be heavy cavalry oriented. They came to me as a set which they appear to be in terms of age and construction. They are intended for a Prussian unit. The theory of a late war helmet using the M91 posts is plausible but as you point out why would they opt for a double ring as opposed to the standard single ring? A double ring in that diameter would have to be specially fabricated as the standard in that diameter would be the single ring style. It also appears that this set was never used.
 
Steve I cannot offer any other thoughts, other then I think I may have a set like this also, will check tomorrow and get back to this post.

James
 
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Thanks James.

If you also have a set like this, it would seem to indicate that they aren't extremely rare and therefore must have been fabricated for some usage not explained by any documentation that has come to light yet?
 
Found them, I forgot I had them on a shelf with the original package they came in.

Package marked HELMKOKARDEN mm 68 PREUSSEN-REICHS

Does not answer your question on what they are for, but they where made for some helmet....

James
 

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James:

Good for you! In the original packaging no less!

Looks like they were intended for some official use. Were there any other mounted troops wearing the Metalhelm that didn't comply with the single silver ring convention?
 
I may have the answer.

If you have a copy of "Militarische Kopfbedeckungen der Kaiserzeit"" by Reiner Herrmann, on page 122 there is a photo of a Metallhelm for a Fahnrich of the Gardes du Corps sporting these Kokarden on M91 posts and they clearly have the double silver rings.

I'd post the picture but my bloody scanner picked tonight to take the night off.
 
James:

Glad you were able verify that for me. I figured I'd go through all the photos I could find so I started with Herr Hermann's book and there it was on the 2nd page of the Prussian Kurassier section. Took about 2 minutes.

Mystery solved.
 
Steve Nick said:
Mystery solved.
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I would not be so definitive, Steve. I have never seen such cockades on any metallic cavalry helmet. What we have here is one modern picture of one helmet, and the subject is a mobile, easily replaced part. Statistically, this is meaningless. Although the hypothesis that this special model was for a Fahnrich or other NCO is interesting, it needs to be further supported. I hope we can find other proof and I will keep an eye open.
 
Cavalry metal helmets sold as modern reproductions (Kur, JzP, GR...) bear cockades with double-threaded central rings. I am not drawing any conclusion regarding the items shown above, but it tells us that these incorrect officer cockades have been made as new parts, at least in the small-hole version.

Cockade 2.PNGCockade.PNG
 
Here are genuine cockades for a GKR/GdC NCO helmet with M91 posts. I got the pictures from a friend who is also a top expert collector from Europe. His opinion, like mine, is that a Fahnrich cockade would bear the exact same, single-threaded silver ring as an officer cockade. Note the presence of the cardboard backings, and also the characteristic small metal ridge around the central hole, which is not present on your cockades.
The more I look at the picture in Herrmann's book, the more I think there is something wrong with this cockade on that helmet. In my opinion, the possibility is growing that your cockades are copies... but I will be happy to be rebutted and learn something new if proven wrong.

20220128_203028.jpg20220128_203035.jpg
 
Bruno:

You may well be correct and Herr Hermann included a photo of a helmet that had incorrect Kokarden on it or simply didn't notice an error. It wouldn't be the first time that a reference book got something wrong.

I'm not heavily invested in any particular outcome. I've had these in a drawer for probably 25 years or so. Just curious as to what the story is on them.
 
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