M15 Lachmann Liner

garlanj

Member
I own an M15 Lachmann that I posted details of about 5 years ago https://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/vie...n&sid=35f151da01efeab8201c4e1e48291e04#p68448
I now have a concern about the liner which I’ve always thought was original. It’s a different colour to my other kurassier helm which is more of a tan colour and seems a bit thicker (although it’s not worn like my other one was) – it’s about 1.5mm thick. Here are a couple of pictures, does anyone have any thoughts?
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Many thanks
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
I don't see a problem.
I don't own a Lachmann, but I do have other makers and all of the liners are a little different.
Some are black, some tan, some dark brown, and some are so sweat stained that it would be hard to tell.
I have an M15 with a liner that is very similar to yours. I will try to post it soon for comparison.

John :)
 

JohnM

Member
Garlanj,

I also do not see a problem with the liner.

It looks like an original and it may have not been issued to the helmet originally but may have been replaced at the depot due to wear, damage, etc.

John
 

911car

Active member
Here is another Lachmann liner. Yours may be indeed a little thicker, but it still looks genuine.

L1030267.JPG
L1000397.jpg
 

argonne

Member
I am just wondering a bit about the curious slots on both sides, under the M91 side posts :-k Never saw that before...

Philippe
:wink:
 

garlanj

Member
Hi Philippe
The slots seem to be the notches cut in the leather of the liner to allow it to curve upwards where the cutout in the leather band is by the chinstrap lugs. Looks like the liner has hardened and shrunk away from the shell a bit.
Thanks
Jeremy
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
Here is a close-up of the liner in my CE Juncker Kurassier:

RDNs9Xo.jpg


It looks very similar to yours and it is 100% legit.
I attribute the wrinkles and "poofy" look to it having been stored wet.

John :)
 

Amybellars

Member
Hi Galanj and John,

I may be wrong as I am still learning. I have a total of amount 20+ Jzp and Kurassier , sorry to say that I have not seen original liners in that colour scheme. I have come across many steel pots with fake liners and yours don't look original to me. If you are gamed to take off the pins to undo the liner from the pot, then you may be able to examine it more.

The poofy looking is due to the liner not probably cut at the two edges to allow for folding down thereby pushing the poofiness to the sides of the two "turning" edges. The leather band will also be able to tell you whether it is new sewing threads onto the liner or not. Some people use original liner bands with look alike matching liner to make it looks good.

Bruno's liner for sure original. That liner is in absolutely beautiful condition, almost unused. The thickness of Bruno's liner is almost the same as normal M15 leather haubes.

As said, I maybe wrong so don't take my words too seriously. Examine it carefully and we all learn from having the actual thing on hand.
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
The color on the C.E. Juncker liner is deceiving due to photography. I took the photos at night with a flash and it makes the brown look gray. A previous owner apparently put a wax preservative on the liner (like Kiwi clear shoe polish) which gives the liner a waxy type feel and also contributes to the gray color in the photographs. If you press on the edges of the liner it conforms to the shell perfectly, as I would suspect garlanj's liner does as well. I had given some thought to wetting down the liner and reforming it, but fear that the old leather would fall apart. When I received this helmet it was apparent that the helmet had been stored with the liner hanging down below the shell, inverted from it's normal position. It took a long time just to get the liner to stay in the normal "in shell" position. That is part of the reason a sharp edge cannot be seen. The front of the liner is detached from the shell because the bent pins on the front brad are broken. The liner has reinforced tongues, which is not common, but I have seen it before. I have three helmets with the metal grommet on the tongues, all post 1910. Here are some additional photos:

lq1HyBq.jpg


xmQRpkQ.jpg


This liner is on this helmet:

6Aw35dv.jpg



John :)
 

garlanj

Member
All
Many thanks for all your input. Firstly I have to say - 20 JzP and Kurassier helmets Amy - wow!
I must admit initially I thought the owner of my helmet might have used something on his hair but having seen John’s liner the colour and finish is so similar it may well have been some leather shoe product by a previous owner (let’s face it it’s been around for over a hundred years!) The liner seems to fit the shell well but I don’t fancy trying to remove it at the moment so I’ll go with the majority that it’s probably legit
Thanks and stay safe
Jeremy
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
My two cents......if possible black light the thread of liner and leather band to which it is stitched. I would also closely examine the fingers. An original will show no differences as they were machine cut or stamped out from the hide. Repros have to be cut out by hand and they will show deviations no matter how carefully you cut them out. I know this as I have made several replacements using a template, tracing the outline and cutting them out by hand.
 

aicusv

Active member
I would question the liner, a close look at it raises some questions. The placement of the rear seam and the cut of it. Also it looks to me to be some markings on the liner that appear to be layout lines. As someone drew the ears on the leather before cutting it out. That said I would still consider having this piece in my collection.

Amy: 20? You can only wear one at a time :D
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
I checked the stitching on the C.E. Juncker and it does not glow under blacklight. The leather band that the liner is stitched to is severely warped and wavy, again probably indicating that it was put away wet. There is a thick discolored line on the inside of the liner where it folds over to go inside the helmet. The color varies from dark brown to gray. It looks like this area was packed with mud or some other debris for a considerable period. There are no remnants of the debris remaining. The liner looks like it has been washed. The bent pins holding on the M91 lugs look like they have never been touched (no double bends and still tight to the curvature of the helmet) and there is rust on the leather band underneath them. There is also rust under the bent pins on the rear stud. The front stud's pins are broken but you can see where the pins were bent over and the rust stain on the leather remains. Unfortunately I put another small rip in the liner when checking this (damn). The seam on the rear of the liner is stitched differently than most that I have seen and it gives the liner a little pucker. The stitching does not glow under blacklight but this area may have been repaired or re-stitched. The supporting grommets on the tongues are all rusted on the inside surface of the liner. I did not notice any traced lines on the liner, either on the inside or outside. This must be something in the photograph.
Interesting note: I noticed that some portions of the liner, part toward the head, does give a slight glow under blacklight, especially in the creases. This is a sure indication that a shoe polish type substance was used as a preservative. Shoe polish, model paint (other than black), weighted silk, and remnants of phosphate detergents will all glow under blacklight.

John :)
 

garlanj

Member
This is like an episode of CSI :D
Checked it with the black light and all ok on the stitching where the outer band is joined together and nothing showed up where the liner is stitched to the band except a row of neat holes - no stitching that I could see :eek:
Looks like the liner may have been glued to the leather band although without taking it out I can’t be sure.
Couldn’t check shape of cutting as the liner is too dry to flatten out.
Leaning towards replacement now
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
garlanj said:
This is like an episode of CSI :D
Checked it with the black light and all ok on the stitching where the outer band is joined together and nothing showed up where the liner is stitched to the band except a row of neat holes - no stitching that I could see :eek:
Looks like the liner may have been glued to the leather band although without taking it out I can’t be sure.
Couldn’t check shape of cutting as the liner is too dry to flatten out.
Leaning towards replacement now

Garlanj,
Glue is a bad sign, but that, by itself, does not mean that the liner is not original. You never know --- somebody may have read Johansson's book and followed his advice. I don't know if you own his book, and it does have some good info in it, but his restoration and preservation ideas are deplorable.

aicusv,
Body fluids will also glow, things like sweat. Is it possible to be a depot replaced liner?

Anything is possible. Honestly I had never questioned this liner. The only thing that stands out from other liners is that it is sewn in the back. If you look at garlanj's 4th photograph showing how the liner overlaps in the back, that is what I usually see. On mine the liner has been folded over instead of overlapping, and it is sewn. I think this is a later modification. I suppose I could cut the stitches and then it would overlap. I bought this helmet from a private owner who had no interest in it. He said he got it from a relative. He was not a dealer so I had no reason to suspect anything he said. It did have some surface rust when I got it, and I only mildly cleaned that off.
Here are some additional photos:

I09wANg.jpg


2moxe17.jpg


xnqUzI7.jpg


John :)
 
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