M15 Prussian Civil Police Belt Buckle?

[Steve Nick]

Picked this up at a local on-line auction. It was going pretty cheap so I thought Why Not? I was assuming it was Prussian infantry but I was told on another forum that it is a late issue Prussian Civil Police and is therefore much rarer than the Army version.

I know next to nothing about belt buckles.

Any thoughts?

 

[b.loree]

Alan S "Czech Legion" has an extensive buckle collection. Let's see what he says. Like you I look at it and simply see Prussian M15. I would really like to know what the "differences" are. Good score to be able to buy in CN bucks for once!

 

[Steve Nick]

Brian:

I got it at the same local auction where I picked up the Trench Art ashtray I posted.

I'm getting to the point where I just can't compete at international auctions when I consider hammer fees, shipping and then do the exchange rate calculation. It's like we're regressing into a 3rd world economy.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi Steve,

Congratulations on this buckle purchase.

I'm not quite understanding what this Prussian buckle is from seeing your excellent photos, so I will ask some questions.

Is the buckle made of steel? Does it attract a magnet on the buckle box/frame? And on the applied disk?

I cannot determine if this buckle is plated, such as with a neusilber finish to it, or what the plated finish is made from after viewing the photos. It looks like the disk is ?pewter or gray in appearance.

I'm aware of the 2-types of Bavarian police buckles (rural and city), but I don't know what defines a Prussian police buckle since I have never seen a reference to it in any books that I have.

I do have a couple of Prussian buckles that are unusual and similar to this one of yours. One is neusilber construction of the buckle box/frame. The other buckle is plated with a finish made to look like it has a neusilber finish, though I don't think the plating material is neusilber. It has an appearance similar to your buckle. I have never learned what the use was for these two buckles I have.

I could dig out my two examples and take photos to post here for comparison.

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[coert65]

Thanks Alan! I also know not much about these buckles, but to me it seems the center is fieldgray, the buckle itself, the frame seems silver.
Maybe @SCHUPO knows more about these, he collects Police items from the era.
Hopefully he will know, and post about it.

 

[Steve Nick]

Hi Steve,

Congratulations on this buckle purchase.

I'm not quite understanding what this Prussian buckle is from seeing your excellent photos, so I will ask some questions.

Is the buckle made of steel? Does it attract a magnet on the buckle box/frame? And on the applied disk?

I cannot determine if this buckle is plated, such as with a neusilber finish to it, or what the plated finish is made from after viewing the photos. It looks like the disk is ?pewter or gray in appearance.

I'm aware of the 2-types of Bavarian police buckles (rural and city), but I don't know what defines a Prussian police buckle since I have never seen a reference to it in any books that I have.

I do have a couple of Prussian buckles that are unusual and similar to this one of yours. One is neusilber construction of the buckle box/frame. The other buckle is plated with a finish made to look like it has a neusilber finish, though I don't think the plating material is neusilber. It has an appearance similar to your buckle. I have never learned what the use was for these two buckles I have.

I could dig out my two examples and take photos to post here for comparison.

Best Wishes,

Alan

Alan:

Thanks for taking the time to delve into this.

The buckle and the "Gott mit Uns" disc are both magnetic. The disc is painted and it appears that the buckle body was painted in a silver which is most prominent on the reverse as shown in the first picture.

I bid on this in an on-line auction and my first reaction on seeing it "in the flesh" was that it seemed smaller than I was expecting. Maybe if I provided the dimensions it might lead us somewhere?

Again, your insights are appreciated.

Steve

 

[SCHUPO]

An interesting buckle. First off, I am not a buckle collector although I have quite a few police buckles. Here is what I think I see:

It is a standard format Prussian EM box buckle made in the typical manner. I see no red flags in the construction. I think the thought was that this could be a Police buckle due to the white metal finish. I think that is possible but see my disclaimer that I am not specifically a buckle collector. At any rate I think I see that the underlying material is all white metal, i.e. it is not plated gold metal. I can't tell what is paint and what is plate but it seems to be properly made in "white metal" to me.

The Prussian Police used a so-called "static eagle" center prior to 1923. From 1923-1931 they used a "flying eagle". Both were made in neusilber plated white metal.

So, I think your buckle could be a Prussian Police NCO buckle but they wore several other kinds of buckles including so-called "D" rectangular open buckles with one or two prongs. The leather belts could be property marked but the buckles would not normally be stamped in my experience.

My best guess would be the buckle is original and it may be Imperial Polizei related.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Yes, the buckle is original. It looks like it's the more unusual to find 2-piece wartime steel construction which is not seen as often. Normally we see the 1-piece stamped construction steel buckles during wartime. I have a few of these 2-piece steel buckle in my collection, and I also have the pewter or "hartzinn" buckles in my collection.

I do not own any Police reference books to know if this type of buckle that Steve has posted is or is not an Imperial German Police Buckle. I don't know if it is or is not a Police buckle because I have never seen any reference to it in all the buckle books I have in my reference library (English, German, and French language buckle reference books). As mentioned, I don't have a reference book on German Police items such as what I know have been published and are available.

It's a very nice and also very interesting buckle. I will dig out my examples for comparison and post them later. And I'll also post my 2-Imperial Bavarian Police buckles for rural and city police.

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[Steve Nick]

Schupo/Alan:

This has become a very interesting conversation. Thanks to you both for taking an interest in the buckle.

It may help to have the dimensions. It is 6cm long and 4.7cm wide.

Before posting it I had a look around various sites seeing if I could find what I thought was an M15 pattern buckle with two piece construction. The construction of the roller/prong assembly and the catch vary but they were all a one piece stamping as you'd expect for a high volume production piece. It was the two solder spots that had me puzzled.

I'll be very keen to see what additional light you can shed on the buckle.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

I have police tip helmets but no police belt buckle. On the other hand, all the policeman photos I have show that the police uniform was worn without a visible belt. Here is a picture of Carl Teike, of the police-departement of Berlin, who was also a composer of "military marches". Thanks to his song "In treue Fest" this motto was marked on the badge of the Berlin police.

 

[b.loree]

A bit late in my reply here but yes Steve....the CN $ situation is always a problem. For our non CN members, the CN$ is always kept below US$ in order to attract US investment and US purchases of our products/services etc. As a Canadian one has to accept this as a fact of life. It is the cost of living next door to the wealthiest nation in the world but that is cool, there are lots of benefits to that location. Buying militaria for our collections here in CN....costly as it is either in US$ or EU both of which are worth more. For example, my purchase of a Prussian officer helmet with uberzug at SOS 2023 was only the second time I have ever bought a complete helmet at the SOS. Any helmet I buy always has to have a reduced price due to restoration issues of some kind, that I can fix. I buy parts, I buy wappen, kokarden, shoulder straps whatever small stuff I can find. I am a militaria collector...I still have fun despite currency values!!

 

[Peter B]

Amen Brian.

When I was on a UN Mission in the Democratic Republic of Congo in 2007-2008 we were paid our Mission Subsistance Allowane is USD. That was one of the rare times our dollar shot up and equaled and for a short period I believe surpassed the USD. Cost me about $10,000 over the length of the mission.

 

[SCHUPO]

Steve Nick,

Your buckle has the roundel soldered on to the box plate so that is why the solder in the two holes is seen on the back. My police buckles are a one piece die strike. I have seen white metal roundels soldered onto gold color Prussian box plates but I always assumed these were military variations. See the photos below showing the two Prussian Police NCO buckles.

And, Clovis is quite right that revolvers were often worn concealed under the uniform coat although period photos of Policemen wearing belts with some sort of box buckle are seen. See Erich Radecke, "Ordnungshuter 1919 bis 1939 in Deutschland". Subtitled, "Bilder aus ihren privaten Fhotoalben".

I hope this helps.

 

[b.loree]

Thanks Pete, as you say only once in my life has the CN$ ever been on par with Uncle Sam's buck!

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Here are some photos of a similar buckle to what Steve first posted here. My example has a 1915 dated maker marked leather tab.

I will also add a couple more buckles that I am not certain what they were used for. One is neusilber. The other one is nickeled steel construction. Both of these 2-buckles have the same style of construction with an applied disk to the front, attached by bent over prongs to the buckle box frame.

My apology for taking so long to get the photos taken and posted here.

Best Wishes,

Alan















Here are the other 2-buckles I mentioned:

 

[ww1czechlegion]

I believe that this first buckle that I posted, and the one that Steve posted here that started this thread are both simply wartime Model 1915 steel buckles. I have so many different variations of Imperial German buckles in my collection that show the experimentation which the Germans were doing with their wartime buckle production and trying to keep up with the supply demand for the military at that time.

I do not think that this 2-piece steel buckle I posted, or the one posted first here by Steve, were specifically used by the German Police. I think it is simply one example of the many variants in the production methods utilized in producing Model 1915 buckles.

As to what the 2-piece neusilber buckle was used for, and the white metal plated steel buckle were used for, I still do not have an answer as to who specifically wore them and/or what they were used for. I know of no reference to them in any current published reference work on Imperial German buckles.

I also have several examples of 2-piece "hartzinn" or "pewter" type material buckles which are 2-piece construction with an applied disk to the front side.

 

[Steve Nick]

Alan:

No need to apologize, I'm glad you took such an interest in the buckle and followed up on my post.

I found the construction of this buckle interesting in that, if you were motivated to simplify the production process for these buckles, the most obvious solution would be to simply stamp the "Gott mit Uns" into the buckle body as they eventually did. That would mean having new dies machined so possibly this soldered buckle was an interim step until the new dies were released to production?

Many thanks for delving into this Alan. It's members like you that make these forums so worthwhile.

Steve