M49 Hessian
- Thread starter Amybellars
- Start date
Sandmann
Well-known member
The various independent states which all carried a “Hesse" in their name makes it a little more complicated to understand the history.
Prussia and many other German states at that time wanted a united Germany. Therefore, from the 1860s onwards, they concluded military conventions to harmonize their armies. Countries that didn't want a united German Reich under Prussian leadership were “persuaded” by blood and iron, as Bismarck called it, in the so-called unification wars. As a result of these individual military conventions, the armies of the smaller countries with little influence were integrated into the Prussian army; only the more influential states retained their own military. However, a common standard for training, equipment and tactics based on the Prussian model was agreed.
Regarding ribbon “1621”, I wonder why it isn't mentioned in the regimental history of the IR115 before 1871?! Furthermore, as far as I could understand, the “Leibgarde” of Hesse-Darmstadt formed the core of the Fusilier Regiment No. 80 and not of the IR115. I hope someone can provide further information on this award ribbon.
Sandmann
Well-known member
No, all Prussian/Hessian regiments, such as the IR115, didn't exist in 1849. According to the regimental history of 1899, the IR 115 was formed in 1872 out of the 1st “Leibgarde” Infantry Regiment and yellow fittings with lion emblem should be correct. But the more I read, the more I think that the ribbon didn't exist before 1871. However, both helmets, Amy's and James's, look extremely authentic, that’s why I wrote an email to the German Society for Military Science and asked if they could help to answer this question. Hope to get an answer in early January.
Amybellars
Well-known member
This is getting very interesting.
Thank you guys.
Thanks Sandy, I look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you guys.
Thanks Sandy, I look forward to hearing from you.
GardeUlan
Well-known member
Hello,
That’s a very good question, which I asked myself, too. After Reading the regimental history of IR 115, page 583 (see link below and attached picture), the ribbon “1621” was introduced only in 1872.
So how is it possible that it’s attached to a M 1849?
Can someone enlighten me, please?
Best wishes,
GardeUlan
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Something to consider; in 1849 Hesse soldiers did not all wake up to a new 1849 pattern helmet. It would have taken years. What was the next model for Hesse, the 1860? So Amy’s helmet hypothetically could have been made in 1859.
“Model” indicates a range of production. X year to X year.
When the Bandeau was awarded in 1872, I am very sure that older helmets would have had the Bandeau added. Old soldiers wearing their old helmets at ceremonies, parades etc. was common during this era. It seems perfectly normal for a Bandeau to be added to old patterns of helmets. Especially a high honour such as a Bandeau.
“Model” indicates a range of production. X year to X year.
When the Bandeau was awarded in 1872, I am very sure that older helmets would have had the Bandeau added. Old soldiers wearing their old helmets at ceremonies, parades etc. was common during this era. It seems perfectly normal for a Bandeau to be added to old patterns of helmets. Especially a high honour such as a Bandeau.
GardeUlan
Well-known member
Thank you for this explanation. This could be the case. Would nice to see an old picture of soldiers wearing such a M 1849 in the 1870ies…
Sandmann
Well-known member
That sounds plausible, but in this case, however, the helmet fittings would have to be gold, since the LIR115 didn‘t wear silver fittings before January 25, 1897.
Anyway, the helmet undoubtedly looks old, so it could have been worn at a re-enactment event like this. On the photo it was a Schleswig-Holstein event, but such reenactment events were certainly celebrated more often in Germany at that time. Sorry Amy, unfortunately there are too many discrepancies in my eyes to believe that this is a real Hessian helmet M1849
Photo source: https://www.altonaer-stadtarchiv.com/denkmäler/
Nacuaa
Active member
I'm not sorry Amy! I don't agree. I think its a first pattern Leib-Garde Helmet coming out of the transitional period with the shako which displayed the heraldry of Hesse in white/silver metal throughout the Napoleonic Wars and the following decades. There appears to be an intermediate period when the Grand Dukes were relying on militias for which we have little uniform information before investing in a standing army at which point they introduced the pickelhaube. So given the height of the helmet and its spike, and the fact that white metal/silver was the traditional color for the plate on the shako, I believe it to be a first model and you have a very rare piece.
Just a note - I don't believe that is a "reenactment" event. Those are veterans of the first Schleswig-Holstein War wearing their original uniforms. On the conclusion of the war and demobilization - much of that materiel - uniforms, helmets etc. was taken home by veterans or put away in storage. The Danish army had no use for all those Schleswig-Holstein pickelhaubes so hence no upgrades or reissues.
Just a note - I don't believe that is a "reenactment" event. Those are veterans of the first Schleswig-Holstein War wearing their original uniforms. On the conclusion of the war and demobilization - much of that materiel - uniforms, helmets etc. was taken home by veterans or put away in storage. The Danish army had no use for all those Schleswig-Holstein pickelhaubes so hence no upgrades or reissues.
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Sandmann
Well-known member
I would really like that. But then I wonder why there are similar M1849s that were made with yellow fittings? I don't believe that both colors were worn at any time. In my eyes, therefore, if the banner “1621” on an M1849 really existed, only one of these two helmets can be correct. Even if both helmets undoubtedly look extremely authentic.
Regarding the Schleswig-Holstein event, I agree with you. The soldiers shown are veterans of the 1848 War and it could have been their original uniforms. It was a bad example.
(Source: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/two-older-hessian-115s.19821/)
Regarding the Schleswig-Holstein event, I agree with you. The soldiers shown are veterans of the 1848 War and it could have been their original uniforms. It was a bad example.
(Source: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/two-older-hessian-115s.19821/)
CLOVIS 57
Well-known member
Another curiosity, on the M49 of the first Leib-Regiment, we should find the fixed tip, but a small threaded cap to fix the Busch hook, the tip serving as a Trichter. (as on the tulip tip of Mecklenburg for the GR89 Schwerin).
Another curiosity, on the M49 of the 1 Leib-Garde-Regiment, we should find the fixed tip, but a small threaded cap to fix the Busch hook, the tip serving as a Trichter. (as on the tulip tip of Mecklenburg for the GR89 Schwerin).
Another curiosity, on the M49 of the 1 Leib-Garde-Regiment, we should find the fixed tip, but a small threaded cap to fix the Busch hook, the tip serving as a Trichter. (as on the tulip tip of Mecklenburg for the GR89 Schwerin).
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Nacuaa
Active member
I asked another collector who is authoritative on these helmets. He believes that it is a Hesse-Darmstadt schlossgarde or palace guard helmet but more research is needed to confirm 100%. Thank you Amy, I've really enjoyed researching your helmet and learned a lot about these that I didn't know. I've attached a painting of Grossherzog Ludwig III 1806-1877. The portrait is from 1857 just eight years after this model helmet was introduced. Here's a link to some information on the palace of the grand dukes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_Palace_Darmstadt. Also here are helmets I collect from this period. They are very hard to find but I love this history so I also research it with 70 mm zinnfiguren toy soldiers of the armies from the period recast from the original molds as well. Many "lost" early molds were rediscovered in former East Germany after unification so its essentially a new field.
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Wonderful helmets, the older ones fascinate me. Am I correct that the one with the silver star plate is Sachsen Meiningen? Would it also be possible to see a close-up photo when convenient?
Sandmann
Well-known member
Very, very interesting. More and more doubts come to my mind. So many authentic old helmets with an additional banner...
May be we are looking at the wrong regiment? The IR115 regiment didn't even exist back then, and perhaps the banner was worn by a completely different unit than expected?
Amybellars
Well-known member
Thank you guys.
I have not been replying as drown by work but I do look at the forum daily in between my work breaks.
It's Chinese New Year break for 2 days though I will need to work from home. I will take more pics of the Hessian helmet and I have recently moved all the early helmets onto one shelf so may take pics tmr for posting.
Talk to all again
I have not been replying as drown by work but I do look at the forum daily in between my work breaks.
It's Chinese New Year break for 2 days though I will need to work from home. I will take more pics of the Hessian helmet and I have recently moved all the early helmets onto one shelf so may take pics tmr for posting.
Talk to all again
GardeUlan
Well-known member
No it‘s getting interesting. In my opinion this is the same helmet which Clovis 57 has posted earlier, and was offered at least twice by HW during the last years. It has these distinctive scratches around the Wappen. Once with and once without 1621 banner…
Best wishes
GardeUlan