Model 1915 CSRG Automatic Rifle

Peter_Suciu

Peter_Suciu

Well-known member
Our good friend Gus wrote a fantastic piece for my FirearmsTruth.com website on the history of the Model 1915 CSRG Automatic Rifle (Chauchat):
http://www.firearmstruth.com/2010/gun-collecting-model-1915-csrg-automatic-rifle

Feel free to visit and leave a comment telling Gus what a great job he did. (Maggie helped him with the big words on this one)
 
Thanks Guys, actually, Maggie did all the words with more than one sillybull (Maggie did not help me with that one)
Best
Gus
 
Yes well done. It is important to correct falsehoods that get repeated - not maliciously - over the years. The CSRG was even kicked around a bit by R. Lee on one of his recent machine gun shows.
 
ebeeby said:
Yes well done. It is important to correct falsehoods that get repeated - not maliciously - over the years. The CSRG was even kicked around a bit by R. Lee on one of his recent machine gun shows.
Click to expand...

I am afraid that R. Lee is Hollywood, he just reads the script, another falshood that his show presented was that the French M2 gas mask had to be urinated on to make it work, he is a good actor, but a poor historan.
Best
Gus
 
The biggest problem with the Chauchat was its tendency to jam during combat. This was the problem caused by the open magazine . I applaud any attempt to puncture historic falsehoods , however the literature is sprinkled with quotes of Doughboys tossing them away after jamming. One has to remember that the Marines had to give up the superb Lewis gun for the Chauchat. That most certainly colored some of the commentaries! I will write back with some quotes later this evening. In the meantime its off to work! :x
 
Hey Badner,
I look forward to any period quotes, but to compair the Lewis to the Chauchat is difficult, as the Lewis was made in much smaller numbers and required a great deal of the exsisting weapons industry, and I do not think production could have been increassed much, and not enough to supply a quarter million more of the Lewis guns. The magazine on the Lewis was also open, but it was not disposable as the Chauchat mag was.

It is also possible to quote out of context to get a different result, for example, 1st Lieutenant Samuel Meek, 82nd company, 5th Marines, 2nd division was quoted as saying "That damned Chauchat, it was a lousy weapon..." That looks to condemn the Chauchat, the the whole quote was "That damned Chauchat, it was a lousy weapon in many ways, but it was another dirt absorber. It was not very accurate, but it usually worked, and this is a great asset in the type of combat we were in. You could use it like a hose!"
Best
Gus
 
For those interested, a very differing view of the Model 1915 C.S.R.G. machine rifle can be found in the widely acclaimed four volume work by Colonel George M. Chinn titled The Machinegun, History, Evolution and Development of Manually Operated, Full Automatic, and Power Driven Aircraft Machineguns. This reference was prepared for the U.S. Navy Bureau of Ordnance in 1951. The chapter on the Chauchat begins on page 238 of volume 1.

Reservist1
 
Hey R 1,
An interesting read, but the writer was not very well informed, there are a number of mistakes in his writing that would lead me to doubt much of what he has to say, the biggest error is his claim that the Chauchat was rushed into production before the war, in fact it was not produced until the second year of the war, it was not even designed until the war had been going on for nearly a year. I suspect this is the source of the myth that half the rifle were thrown away, I have never served in the military, but I believe that the notion that soldiers would discard issued weapons to be very hard to believe, all the Vets I have talked to, have told me that they were held accountable for the weapons they were issued, and if they could not produce them, they had better have a good reason.
Best
Gus
 
Gus: Having worked on and fired more than a few C.S.R.G.s I'm afraid I have to agree with Colonel Chinn concerning the design and construction shortcomings of the weapon.

Reservist1
 
reservist1 said:
Gus: Having worked on and fired more than a few C.S.R.G.s I'm afraid I have to agree with Colonel Chinn concerning the design and construction shortcomings of the weapon.

Reservist1
Click to expand...

I can respect that, but how much training have you had on the operation and maintainance of the weapon? That was a large part of the problem many of the US troops had with it, they either did not get the proper training, or the did not pay attention to ttheir French trainers.
There was a time that I bought into the myth that this rifle was the worst MG ever, but as I started to read more, I found that there was very little negative in period print, all the negative pretty much came after the fact, and by then it was easy to compare the Chauchat to more modern weapons.
If one compared the short comings of the CSRG to other weapons, it would be interesting to see the out come, for example, the flimsy magazines causing stoppages due to being dropped and bent, failure to function when dirty, that could be discribing the P '08, a very expensive and well designed weapon that suffered the same problems, the major difference is that the P '08 was mainly for decoration, the CSRG revolutionized warfare.
Best
gus
 
Gus: I worked for the firm that imported the surplus C.S.R.G.s into the US and handled most of the guns imported. I also worked for over 25 years for the US government in a technical capacity dealing with automatic weapons. During the course of that employment I fired quite a few C.S.R.G.s and testified about their technical aspects in Federal courts.

In my opinion, the basic concept behind the weapon was not bad however, the design execution and construction were lacking.

That said, I believe we will have to "agree to disagree" about the merits of the C.S.R.G.

Reservist1
 
I can agree to that, but I still believe that this weapon is being held to a modern standard, I have compared it to the Ford Model T, which I have recently found on the list of the 50 worst cars ever, but again, they are making a comparison to modern technology.
Best
Gus
 
Quotes from Peter F. Owens " To the Limit of Endurance" , A Battalion of Marines in the Great War. pp29-30. " Having surrendered the superb Lewis machine guns , marines were disgusted to discover they would have to stagger into the fight armed with the cumbersome , temeramental Chauchat automatic rifle. Lieutenant Sellers recalled ; " They looked like they were made out of cigar boxes and tin cans , and we had an awful time getting the men to carry them, It was almost as dangerous for the man shooting one as it was for anyone out in front being shot at.' Lieutenant Cates agreed ; " The Chauchat was a pain in the neck. Lock it in a vice, lock it in and fire it at 100yds and you'd have a dispersion of 20-25 feet. Very heavy. My platoon had 19 clip bags. We had to rotate them on the march . the lieutenants taking their turn same as everyone. Those bags weighed 50-60 lbs." p124. Corporal Sparks wrote angrily in his diary, "Light machine guns were useless. They were Chauchats and jammed after a few rounds , sothat those who had them threw the ammo away." Hope I have'nt stirred the pot to much , but I thought you would be interested. I'll search for more quotes. :)
 
Gustaf said:
I am afraid that R. Lee is Hollywood, he just reads the script, another falshood that his show presented was that the French M2 gas mask had to be urinated on to make it work, he is a good actor, but a poor historan.
Click to expand...

It is entertaining but it isn't history. I actually enjoyed Mail Call more than the Lock and Load. I felt the latter really spoke down to the audience and just couldn't watch it anymore.

I've met him a few times and he's a nice guy. We chatted at SOS for a few minutes a couple of years ago.
 
Outstandig photo, the naysayers often claim that the Germans did not use captured Chauchats, but the official German book on captured weapons does cover the Chauchat, the main reason it was not as popular as the Lewis in the German use was because it was difficult to recaliber to 7,9x57
Best
Gus
 
Quote from First Lt. Louis Brockway serving with the Headquarters Company U.S. 310th Infantry, 78th Division as reprinted on pages 231 & 232 of The Belgian Rattlesnake The Lewis Automatic Machinegun
by William M. Easterly.

"... First they sent us up near Belgium where the British lines were. We spent the next ten weeks or so training with the English. Did you ever eat rabbit five days a week? Don't! We were given all British equipment, even uniforms in some cases. They had one gun, an automatic rifle called the Lewis Gun, which we thought was great. You know, there was one thing I could never figure out. Back in the United States they had the Browning Automatic Rifle which was outstanding, and the English had the Lewis. But when we went into real action, we ended up with that Chauchat, the French gun - you couldn't hit anything with it. It did work however. If it jammed, jou'd just bang it against a tree and it would start shooting again - but I still don't know why we didn't have the Lewis or the Browning."

Reservist1
 
I can not remember where I saw that, but I will look, I doubt that there is an English version, but then the US and Britian were translating this books for their own use during the war.
I just noticed that the CSRG in the photo is an early version, and the fellwo on the trigger is not holding it correctly.
Best
Gus
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top