Mystery Wappen

W

Wyliecoyote

New member
Recently I came across a picture that has caption Russland, last number in the date is cut off, only 191? legible. These truppen have wappen that appear to be Grenadier wappen with an extra bandeau at the bottem which extend from the left & right adler talons. The pics are not clear enough to be 100% sure, but there might be Garde stars like Garde Grenadiers also. I can find no reference to help me idenify the helmet plate.

Can anybody identify what troops these might be?

Does anybody have a picture of a similiar wappen?

Does anybody have any similiar pics of troops wearing this type helmet plate?





Geo
 
George,

Look an example of the Wappen for Grenadier Regiment number nine.

What is amazing to me is that these guys are Landsturm. So this goes back to which unit for which Wappen? And is that a brigade number or a battalion number?

What a great photo! Can you e-mail the entire thing to me and I will try to put filters on it? Please post the entire photo on the site here. Great shot!
 
joerookery said:
George,

Look an example of the Wappen for Grenadier Regiment number nine.
Click to expand...
Joe,

It's very likely I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the wappen of Colbergsches-Grenadier-Regiment Graf Gneisenau (2. Pommersches) Nr.9.

Looking at the wappen on Tony's site, for Grenadier Nr. 9 the motto bandeaus are more around the eagle's stomach, the feet and tail feathers are unobstructed. It appears to me, in this photo, that there is a bandeau at the very bottom of the wappen, over the feet and covering the tail feathers. The only one I saw like that on Tony's pages was for the 4th Batterie, Garde-Fußartillerie-Regiment, but these guys have spikes on their helmets, not the artillery ball, so I'm totally confused. I wish the wappen were a little clearer in the photo. I tried adjusting it some in Photo Shop and there is definitely a bandeau at the very bottom and I can tell there is writing on it, but I can't read it. Due to the light I cannot tell if there's a Garde star on the eagle on not.

wappenwx5.jpg
 
Good for you Mike!

Too many members vote with silence. If they are not certain they say nothing so I love to have a discussion!

You may be right -- I may be crazy -- but I just might be the lunatic you're looking for... sounds like a song. I think we should blame George. It is indeed a fantastic picture but both you and I are trying to use Photoshop on a Web picture. If only George would give up something like... sleep... he could be e-mailing copies of that scan. But no... I can't get no satisfaction -- too much coffee.
 
Here it is. Sadly there is nothing on the back at all. On the left upper corner is 191? To me, it could be 1914. Right upper says Russland, so we have Ostfront truppen. Notice they all are wearing chin scales, except the NCO in the middle, who appears to have a Prussian wappen instead of a Grenadier based wappen. The chap standing 2nd from the right in the rear appears to have a perlring spitze? Why don't they have uberzugen?




Seems the size restriction prevents the picture from enlarging.

Geo
 
Again, this is the only wappen I can find that has that style of chicken with the bandeau covering it's feet.

gardefussarilleriesz9.jpg
 
I tried without much success to coax a little more detail out of the picture. I think George should've done a better job taking the picture in the first place. Getting those guys to hold still must have been tough enough but the sun placement is hard to overcome.
Doesn't it just figure that there is nothing on the back -- didn't these guys realize how important this would be to us? Mail the postcard!

While I cannot be certain -- sort of looking at blobs -- I think the salient point is the position of the scepter and the extent of the flag tips. I have been unable to determine whether there is writing or not. But it seems to me that the scepter is on "top" and not underneath the bandeaux. It also seems to me that the flag tips are two pointed and extend beyond the scepter. Here are some blobs that are not in any better than what we had before.

GrenadierenRussland_6.jpg

GrenadierenRussland_5.jpg
GrenadierenRussland_7.jpg


Here are some outstanding artwork from the recent Turinetti book pages 180 and 181.
colberg1.jpg

colberg2.jpg

The number five on the collar dogs is pretty clear. So I have no idea whether this is brigade or battalion this gives me another clue I can develop. Thanks to George for sending the larger picture -- this is interesting!
 
Joe,

I agree with you, the sword and scepter are on top of the bandeau, not underneath, and the trailing ends of the bandeau end in two points, not a clean edge.

It does look like these guys are from Grenadier Regt Nr. 9! The wappen you show started in use in 1913. I think the wappen I looked at originally on Tony's site for Grendadier Regt Nr 9 didn't fit with the photo because the wappen was the one from before 1913.
 
Thanks Joe! The wappen for the Gren. Regt. 9 looks like that could be it. Does anybody have a pic of this wappen, front & back? Somebody was using this wappen post-1913, who? Does that appear to be a perlring spike to you at all. What is you opinion of the date?
 
George: There is a good photograph of a 9th grenadier helmet with the
June 6, 1913 front plate on page 113 of Militarische Kopfbedeckungen der Kaiserzeit by Reiner Herrmann.

The scepter on the actual plate is a little different than that depicted in the artwork from Mr. Turinetti's book.

Reservist1
 
R1

Thanks for the heads up! I don't have access to that book, how about that bandeau, is it the same as the scan Joe submitted?

Geo
 
George: The banner is pretty much the same as what can be determined from your photo. The banner extends further out from each side of the eagle than depicted in the drawing and is just about parallel with the upper edge of the spread wings.

Reservist1
 
Good eyes Jpe. I was stumped on this one, as I thought it was the Bandeau that was laying across the tail feathers. Never occured to me that it was just the ends of the Bandeau.

Now...... WHY are these guys wearing this?
 
The equipment is interesting too. These men have Tornisters that have whitened straps, for parade, and this is one of the few photos that show the Bread bag strap used to support the bread bag. The are not a front line unit, as the have the Gew 88s. I would date this photo 1917, as there is no other combination that would fit.
Gus
 
GrenadierenRussland_8.jpg

Now...... WHY are these guys wearing this?
Click to expand...

It gets worse. The picture above is the date on the card that George sent. It is not a seven, it is not a one, it is not a four. Based on some scratchings on the early numbers it seems as though the pen was running out of ink. Gus might have the key. If it is 1917 -- if -- then it could be the fifth Battalion as collar dog number changed meanings in 1915. If we assume that that helmets were issued by the same Bekleidungsamt as the ninth Grenadier Regiment we are talking about BAII. Ldst.-I.-Btl Deutsch-Krone (II.5). That battalion was split up with first and second company going one way and third and fourth company going another way. A detachment of third company went somewhere else. I have more work to do...
 
The M88's were issued through out the war and in frontline use by some units on the eatern front till 1918..Could they just have a grenadier plate?
The onle debate that the M88's are early issue is the lack of trap gaurds on the magizine's . I have a tornister marked to the 18 JR dated 1915 and it has White steaps.
Mark
 
The date and Russland were on the negative, not written on the pc.

Gus

Gew 88's were used in the front. It was earlier in the war, and I have to check a reference later, but at one point when there was a shortage of rifles, Landwehr / Landsturm had to trade their 88's in for captured weapons like M91's from Russia, and their Gew 88's given to frontline troops. I agree with you that these guys aren't frontline troops, especially as they are not wearing uberzugen. However they are in the field in Russia, so if it is 1917, wouldn't they be wearing stahlhelms?

Mark

I do not believe that the abscence or presence of magazine well covers on any picture of Gew 88's indicates a time period, early or late war. Of a total production of 1, 675,000 Gewer 88's produced by 1897, there were over 600,000 used during WWI.

I believe 3 types of 88's in service 1914 - 1918:

The Gew 88/S which was the G 88 rifle modified between 1903-05 to chamber the Spitzer cartridge, but still remain clip loaded. The clip would drop out of the open magazine well after the last round was ejected. There was also a 88/S that was converted to an upward clip ejection system used in conjunction with a magazine cover done at Spandau Arsenal in 1915. Total for these specially modified S rifles was 75,000.

The Gew 88/05 which was a 88/S rifle that has been modified to be charger loaded like it's replacement the Gew 98 during 1906-07. Supposed to have been a total of 370,000.

The Gew 88/14 is the rarest varient, which is no more than a 88/05 conversion that was produced from Dec. 1914 and May - June 1915, was crudely done as quickly as possible with little or no consideration for maintaining the quality of the 88/05. Total supposed to be less than 75,000.

The mag well covers appeared in 1914 to prevent dirt & debris in the trenches from clogging the magazine. I believe they all are date stamped 1914. I used to think that all rifles sporting these covers were either 88/14's or 88/05's, but that is not so. .

Most pictures of troops armed with Gew 88's that I have observed do not have magazine covers, regardless of date. Just my observation.
 
Gus

I got this from "The German Rifle" by John Walter. IR 66 (Magdeburgisches) began the war armed with Gewehr 98's, were issued Gew 88/05 from May - November 1915, were then issued converted captured Russian Mosin (M91) rifles until late 1916, then re-issued Gew 98's for the duration of the war. Would be interesting to learn why they traded in Gew 98's to begin with. There were supposed to be at least a half million Gew 88's still being used by Germany during the war, it would seem impossible that they never made their way to the front.

Mark

I have to recant a little bit. The magazine covers were not available until December 1914. So if you see a photo of a German armed with a mag covered rifle, it is Post Dec. '14.
 
Did the 98 and the 88 use the same round of ammunition? What about the captured rifle? Interchangeability of munitions seems to be something significant.
 
joerookery said:
Did the 98 and the 88 use the same round of ammunition? What about the captured rifle? Interchangeability of munitions seems to be something significant.
Click to expand...

Joe: the Gew. 88 was modified before the start of the war to make it compatible with the larger diameter "S" bullet used in the Gew. 98. Modified Gew. 88s have a letter "S" stamped on top of the receiver ring.
As for captured rifles, some were converted to 7.92x57mm and some were used in their original chambering.

Reservist1
 
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