joerookery
Well-known member
Are either of these 2 a needle gun?
needle gun?
- Thread starter joerookery
- Start date
joerookery
Well-known member
What about these?
reservist1
Member
Joe: The rifles in the top two photos are "needle guns". The rifle in the upper photo appears to be a Model 1862 Infantry Rifle and the one in the second photo a Model 1842 Infantry Rifle.
In the last photo the weapon on the left (as you look at the photo) Is a percussion, muzzle loading, rifle. The weapon on the right is not military, it appears to be a double barrel, percussion, muzzle loading shotgun porobably used for hunting.
Reservist1
Joe you're killing me with these images :thumbup: , the Saxon soldier is from a Fusilier company and in the second image the soldier is from a Grenadier company. Black belt and pack equipments fusilier, white grenadier. The second soldiers armband indicates that the photo shows him as serving in the Danish War of 1864, as armbands were used to identify Prussian troops to their Austrian allies.
The last image is a wild one, perhaps a city militia responsible for their own weapons (just guessing). It is interesting with tintypes as the image is reversed, the locks are on the left side of the weapons in the image.
The last image is a wild one, perhaps a city militia responsible for their own weapons (just guessing). It is interesting with tintypes as the image is reversed, the locks are on the left side of the weapons in the image.
joerookery
Well-known member
Thank you guys for such a quick and detailed answer! I should have asked here first. currently, I am very interested in the 1842 model as pointed out by R1. I guess I am chasing down not only the function of this breech loading rifle but how much of a surprise it was to the Austrian forces in 1866. The doctrine had not changed to reflect breach loading rifles. They were used by Jager and guard formations in 1848. As Larry pointed out some of them were used in 1864. ( by the way that tidbit about the armband is something I did not know thank you.) So between the doctrine of 1866 and the actual weapons there is a disconnect. So I needed some pictures–I got pictures but no great understanding about the guns. So thank you for your help.
Larry,
I would like to tell you that all these pictures belong to me and only me but I would be lying. These images are from Brian Kostel who has kindly given permission to post them all over. :salute: :salute:
Larry,
I would like to tell you that all these pictures belong to me and only me but I would be lying. These images are from Brian Kostel who has kindly given permission to post them all over. :salute: :salute:
Hi Joe
An excellent reference in my opinion would by John Walter, The German Rifle, Arms and Armor Press 1979. Although the sub title states that it deals with the standard bolt-action designs, 1871-1945, he goes into extensive detail with the needle gun variations prior to 1871.
It indeed was a revolutionary design and the tactics of the day lagged behind its capabilities. The impact it had on it's adversaries in the various conflicts it was engaged in was enormous. You only have to look at the mad scramble other forces engaged in to counter its effects. The rash of modified muzzleloading weapons quickly (and sometimes awkwardly) converted into breechloaders. The Bavarian Podewils, Austrian Werndl and French Tabatiere are but a few. It was not until the developement of the French Chassepot and Bavarian Werder that true, quality counters to the Needle gun emerged on the European continent.
As far as tactical developement is concerned vis a vis weapons we can look at our own Civil War for an example. We entered the war in 1861 with many of the regiments being armed with the M1858 Rifled Musket which fired the .58 caliber conical ball designed by Claude Minie'. Prior to that time the weapons were primarily smoothbore muskets with very limited effective range. The troops were deployed with linear tactics, unchanged since Napoleon, yet by the time of the battles of Spottsylvania and the Wilderness in May of 1864 entrenchments were the rule. During the siege of Petersburg later in the year, the city was nearly ringed with entrenched troops similar to the Great War. We learn fast when we have to.
Larry
An excellent reference in my opinion would by John Walter, The German Rifle, Arms and Armor Press 1979. Although the sub title states that it deals with the standard bolt-action designs, 1871-1945, he goes into extensive detail with the needle gun variations prior to 1871.
It indeed was a revolutionary design and the tactics of the day lagged behind its capabilities. The impact it had on it's adversaries in the various conflicts it was engaged in was enormous. You only have to look at the mad scramble other forces engaged in to counter its effects. The rash of modified muzzleloading weapons quickly (and sometimes awkwardly) converted into breechloaders. The Bavarian Podewils, Austrian Werndl and French Tabatiere are but a few. It was not until the developement of the French Chassepot and Bavarian Werder that true, quality counters to the Needle gun emerged on the European continent.
As far as tactical developement is concerned vis a vis weapons we can look at our own Civil War for an example. We entered the war in 1861 with many of the regiments being armed with the M1858 Rifled Musket which fired the .58 caliber conical ball designed by Claude Minie'. Prior to that time the weapons were primarily smoothbore muskets with very limited effective range. The troops were deployed with linear tactics, unchanged since Napoleon, yet by the time of the battles of Spottsylvania and the Wilderness in May of 1864 entrenchments were the rule. During the siege of Petersburg later in the year, the city was nearly ringed with entrenched troops similar to the Great War. We learn fast when we have to.
Larry
reservist1
Member
Joe: As Larry mentioned John Walter's book on the German Rifle is a very good reference on the various models of the needle gun. If you want to practice your German, the following is a very good article, with photos, about the rifles and their ammunition.
http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/znm41/znm41ge.html
Reservist1
http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/znm41/znm41ge.html
Reservist1
joerookery
Well-known member
Highly interesting concept!
We are doing bunches for the next book. The amazing thing to me is that the American Civil War was generally discounted by the European doctrine writers. It seems as though there was this general thought pattern that armies of the Western Hemisphere were amateur/volunteers and therefore did not behave in the ways that a professional army would. Lots of little points here as the Western Hemisphere tended to maneuver in line and the Austrians in 1866 thought that the best way of dealing with a needle gun was not to present a stationary target. Therefore, it was Austrian columns versus the needle gun. Some success against the Italians and the Prussian II Corps seems to have given the Austrians some traction. Is what we're writing about. Fascinating stuff! Thanks for your help. :read2: :blah5: :blah5: :blah5:
We are doing bunches for the next book. The amazing thing to me is that the American Civil War was generally discounted by the European doctrine writers. It seems as though there was this general thought pattern that armies of the Western Hemisphere were amateur/volunteers and therefore did not behave in the ways that a professional army would. Lots of little points here as the Western Hemisphere tended to maneuver in line and the Austrians in 1866 thought that the best way of dealing with a needle gun was not to present a stationary target. Therefore, it was Austrian columns versus the needle gun. Some success against the Italians and the Prussian II Corps seems to have given the Austrians some traction. Is what we're writing about. Fascinating stuff! Thanks for your help. :read2: :blah5: :blah5: :blah5:
joerookery
Well-known member
Outstanding article thank you for the link! I will write him and ask about what source he got that diagram from.really top-notch thanks again.
They were right Joe, our standing Army prior to April 1861 consisted of around 25,000 men of all arms. True we had loads of homegrown militia units, the famous Fire Zouaves of New York for example, who concentrated on drill competition primarily, but that was it.
In 1840 the Army sent an officer named William Hardee to France to study tactics. Upon his return he published Hardee's Tactics, all based of course on French doctrine. As a side note a manuver known as a "column assault" was included in his book. It was used to carry works or punch a hole in an opposing line and could be anything from company to regimental strength.
Our battles were smaller too, the largest being Gettysburg July 1-3 1863 were the combatant total was around 150,000 men. Compare that to Koniggratz in 1866 with nearly 400,000 involved. However, by War's end in 1865, around two million men had worn the Union blue and around one million Confederate Gray, with 600,000 casualties being the result. We learned a lot in those four years and were probably as good as any on the field.
Larry
Larmo said:
It is indeed ironic Larry that there were international observers from around the world watching the US civil war closely. Amongst them, French and Preußen officers. And just five short years later almost two million soldiers would meet in France...
So true Tony, and Phil Sheridan was with King Wilhelm and von Moltke in 1870..... W.T.Sherman did a battlefield tour of France in 1872 .. 140 years ago today Marshall Bazaine and the French Army of the Rhine were barricaded in the defenses of Metz
Question though, where was Sir Harry Flashman in all of this?? :-k :bom:
L
Question though, where was Sir Harry Flashman in all of this?? :-k :bom:
L
Gents
Here is a selection of Franco-Prussian War weapons. From the top:
Bavarian M1868 Raupenhelm
2 x M1860 infantry pickelhaubes
Prussian M1860 Dragoon
Prussian M1851 Cavalry pistol
M1862 Zundnadelgewehr (I shoot this one with cartridges made to original specs)
M1858/67 Podewils-Lindner Gewehr
M1869 Werder 'Blitzgewehr'
M1841 Zundnadelgewehr
Missing from this photo are my recently acquired M1860 Fusiliergewehr
and two M1866 Fusil-Chassepot, one of which I have also been shooting using hand-made cartridges to original blueprints.
Just need the M1854 Pikenbusche, M1857 Karabinier, and M1865 Jagerbusche to complete the collection.
Mike
Here is a selection of Franco-Prussian War weapons. From the top:
Bavarian M1868 Raupenhelm
2 x M1860 infantry pickelhaubes
Prussian M1860 Dragoon
Prussian M1851 Cavalry pistol
M1862 Zundnadelgewehr (I shoot this one with cartridges made to original specs)
M1858/67 Podewils-Lindner Gewehr
M1869 Werder 'Blitzgewehr'
M1841 Zundnadelgewehr
Missing from this photo are my recently acquired M1860 Fusiliergewehr
and two M1866 Fusil-Chassepot, one of which I have also been shooting using hand-made cartridges to original blueprints.
Just need the M1854 Pikenbusche, M1857 Karabinier, and M1865 Jagerbusche to complete the collection.
Mike
Steve,
More detail on the '41 and '62 in this post.
Mike
http://pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3636&highlight=dreyse
More detail on the '41 and '62 in this post.
Mike
http://pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3636&highlight=dreyse
Very nice Mike, thanks for sharing these. Is the information regarding the manufacture of the needle gun ammunition available to share as well? I'd love to shoot some of mine...Another question, are there unit markings on the weapons. If so, shoot the markings over to me (pun intended) and I'll look them up for you if you haven't already. 
Great items....
Larry
Great items....
Larry
Wyliecoyote
New member
flasheart said:Gents
Here is a selection of Franco-Prussian War weapons. From the top:
Bavarian M1868 Raupenhelm
2 x M1860 infantry pickelhaubes
Prussian M1860 Dragoon
Prussian M1851 Cavalry pistol
M1862 Zundnadelgewehr (I shoot this one with cartridges made to original specs)
M1858/67 Podewils-Lindner Gewehr
M1869 Werder 'Blitzgewehr'
M1841 Zundnadelgewehr
Missing from this photo are my recently acquired M1860 Fusiliergewehr
and two M1866 Fusil-Chassepot, one of which I have also been shooting using hand-made cartridges to original blueprints.
Just need the M1854 Pikenbusche, M1857 Karabinier, and M1865 Jagerbusche to complete the collection.
Mike
:love10: WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
