Newly acquired Hessen helmets

[Hessen168]

Greetings and thanks for letting me in the group. I have an interest in Imperial Hessen militaria and I recently acquired two helmets from a friend. Being a novice collector to these things, and even though I've done research and stuff, I didn't realize there was so many variations of these pickelhauben. I acquired a Hessian artillery officer and what I believe to be a 1915 enlisted. The chin scales throw me I was assuming that was for NCOs, but I was informed that's not always correct. Chin scales are not indicative of rank.
Neither one of these helmets has any unit markings, maker's marks, or owner's name.
Perhaps you fine gentleman can enlighten me to what I have. I would also appreciate a ball park value.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm II]

I could be wrong, however as for you enlisted man, (witch by the way is 1895, rather than 1915) should have a cruciform spike base, and a different spike I believe. Meaning the Hessian Wappen is incorrect, and the helmet is in fact, not Hessian, as for the Artillery officer, I am unsure, as I am no great authority, but it looks good to my eye. So personally, I would say the Enlisted in maybe an older put-together helmet, however as said, I could be wrong.

 

[Hessen168]

I could be wrong, however as for you enlisted man, (witch by the way is 1895, rather than 1915) should have a cruciform spike base, and a different spike I believe. Meaning the Hessian Wappen is incorrect, and the helmet is in fact, not Hessian, as for the Artillery officer, I am unsure, as I am no great authority, but it looks good to my eye. So personally, I would say the Enlisted in maybe an older put-together helmet, however as said, I could be wrong.

-Kaiser

Thanks for that reply. I saw a helmet that looked just like that with the Prussian spike base as a 1915 wartime expedient situation, unlike my classic text book example JR168 helmet has the cruciform base and the fluted spike. It was listed as a 1915 helmet and looked just like mine except it had a leather chin strap instead of scales. Upon looking under the liner there are no extra holes in there and the Hessen wappen fits perfectly. If you were to hold it in your hand it pretty much looks untouched unless somebody monkeyed with it 100 years ago. It's got an inventory tag in the rear visor that came out of an old collection. That's all I know about it.
Hence all my questions.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm II]

Thanks for that reply. I saw a helmet that looked just like that with the Prussian spike base as a 1915 wartime expedient situation, unlike my classic text book example JR168 helmet has the cruciform base and the fluted spike. It was listed as a 1915 helmet and looked just like mine except it had a leather chin strap instead of scales. Upon looking under the liner there are no extra holes in there and the Hessen wappen fits perfectly. If you were to hold it in your hand it pretty much looks untouched unless somebody monkeyed with it 100 years ago. It's got an inventory tag in the rear visor that came out of an old collection. That's all I know about it.
Hence all my questions.

That's an interesting situation, I personally, have never seen something like that, however the one thing I am going to say I can assure, is that it is 1895, rather than 1915. I am actually hoping someone else can figure this out, I have become fairly interested in your helmet.

 

[Hessen168]

That's an interesting situation, I personally, have never seen something like that, however the one thing I am going to say I can assure, is that it is 1895, rather than 1915. I am actually hoping someone else can figure this out, I have become fairly interested in your helmet.

Here's when I did just now doing an internet search. There are several. IMA sold one recently.

 

[argonne]

Hi,

M95 EM hessian helmets before 1914 never had a prussian styled round spike base!
This came only on simplified war productions helmets with iron fittings and sometimes brass or white metal fittings (maillechort / german silver).

Here a pure M95 helmet of the hessian JR118 /RJR 88 2B:


.
And here a simplified war time (felt) production, hessian RJR254 with white metal, because RJR254 was partially formed by LGR115.





Philippe

 

[KAGGR#1]

Hi,

M95 EM hessian helmets before 1914 never had a prussian styled round spike base!
This came only on simplified war productions helmets with iron fittings and sometimes brass or white metal fittings (maillechort / german silver).

Here a pure M95 helmet of the hessian JR118 /RJR 88 2B:

View attachment 43341
.
And here a simplified war time (felt) production, hessian RJR254 with white metal, because RJR254 was partially formed by LGR115.

View attachment 43342
View attachment 43343
View attachment 43344

Philippe

Very nice helmets !
Steve

 

[b.loree]

The internet photo you show in your third post again is a Model1915 with twist off spike and grey painted fittings. This wartime configuaration is legit but your helmet is not. No Hessen M1895 with brass fittings has a round Prussian style spike base, they are cruciform with fluted spike as shown by Argonne. In conclusion, your helmet probably has extra holes punched in the shell in order to put this Hessen plate on it. This is not unusual, as before the internet older collectors had no idea as to what was proper/regulation.

 

[Hessen168]

The internet photo you show in your third post again is a Model1915 with twist off spike and grey painted fittings. This wartime configuaration is legit but your helmet is not. No Hessen M1895 with brass fittings has a round Prussian style spike base, they are cruciform with fluted spike as shown by Argonne. In conclusion, your helmet probably has extra holes punched in the shell in order to put this Hessen plate on it. This is not unusual, as before the internet older collectors had no idea as to what was proper/regulation.

There are no extra holes in this shell I peeled the liner back to examine it.

The internet photo you show in your third post again is a Model1915 with twist off spike and grey painted fittings. This wartime configuaration is legit but your helmet is not. No Hessen M1895 with brass fittings has a round Prussian style spike base, they are cruciform with fluted spike as shown by Argonne. In conclusion, your helmet probably has extra holes punched in the shell in order to put this Hessen plate on it. This is not unusual, as before the internet older collectors had no idea as to what was proper/regulation.

That threw me as well,! but I saw one being sold by IMA recently had looked exactly like this one except it had a leather chin strap but it had the Prussian Spike and brass fittings with Hessen and Imperial cockades. This shell has no extra holes as you can see in the attached photo.

 

[b.loree]

Thanks for the photo....that does add to the mystery as obviously the factory installed grommets match with the loops on the helmet plate. One second enquiry....can you check the back of the helmet plate to make sure the loops have not been re soldered/moved. The old solder should have a grey patina to it. So there is no evidence of filled in cruciform holes in the top of the helmet?. The only other thing that I can think of, is that this might have originally been a Prussian Garde helmet. The wide spread wings of a Garde plate might fit those grommeted holes. If so you may also see marks of the Garde eagle wings in the shellac. Other than those questions, I am flummoxed! .

 

[Hessen168]

This one perplexes me too. I got both of them on a deal from my friend. He had one of the biggest Imperial collections in the San Francisco Bay Area. He's been selling everything off as he's getting up there in age and he knew I wanted Hessen helmets, so he saved these two for me. I'm assuming the artillery officer is okay. That one has the classic cruciform base but it does have a pearl ring. It is not regiment or owner marked either.

 

[Hessen168]

Thanks for the photo....that does add to the mystery as obviously the factory installed grommets match with the loops on the helmet plate. One second enquiry....can you check the back of the helmet plate to make sure the loops have not been re soldered/moved. The old solder should have a grey patina to it. So there is no evidence of filled in cruciform holes in the top of the helmet?. The only other thing that I can think of, is that this might have originally been a Prussian Garde helmet. The wide spread wings of a Garde plate might fit those grommeted holes. If so you may also see marks of the Garde eagle wings in the shellac. Other than those questions, I am flummoxed! .

I was reluctant to do this but I pulled the leather tabs to remove the wappen. Perhaps you can lend your expertise?

 

[Hessen168]

Here's the artillery officer

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Bonjour Hesse 168,
Je n'ai aucun problème avec votre casque.

Comme le disait Philippe, les modèles M67 et 95 ont toujours une base cruciforme et une pointe cannelée.

Mais :

A la mobilisation, dans l'urgence, les Hessois n'ont pas pu fournir autant de casques atypiques qu'il y avait de réservistes à équiper. La BA XVIII, qui équipait également la Hesse électorale (dont les casques étaient prussiens, avec des embouts standards), plaça donc simplement des lions (Hesse grand-ducal) sur les casques prussiens.
Certaines coques prussiennes avaient les trous pour l'aigle remplis d'un morceau de basane à l'intérieur, puis repercés plus bas et plus larges (10 cm ~) avec des œillets pour le lion.
Mais d’autres, comme les photos ci-dessous, ont été percées directement dans le lion de Hesse.




Lorsque les raccords sont en laiton, c'est un casque en Hesse M95/ersatz14, et lorsqu'ils sont en fer, c'est un casque en Hesse M15/ersatz15.



Je possède de nombreuses photos d'époque, qui attestent de son assemblage authentique.
Infra, un Hessois avec... un casque prussien, seule la cokade est de Hesse. Même certaines boucles de ceinture sont prussiennes (Le pire, c'est que les jambes monogrammées et le Litzen proviennent du Leib-Infanterie-Regiment !!!)




Infra, un Hessois (boucle et cocarde) coiffé d'un casque prussien.



Un artilleur, une boucle de ceinture et un landkokarde de Hesse, mais un casque prussien.

Et enfin, un Hessian avec une pointe prussienne à base ronde.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Thank you for the additional photos. Both your helmets are very good. The officer complies, including the rear spine with its two visible studs.
The lion on the artillery officer's helmet shows the paw resting on the foliage, which is badly stamped, and the shell shows the trace of another lion, 5mm higher...

 

[Hessen168]

Hello Hessen 168,
I have no problem with your helmet.
As Philippe said, models M67 and 95 always have a cruciform base and fluted tip.
But :
At mobilisation, in the emergency, the Hessians were unable to supply as many atypical helmets as there were reservists to equip. The B.A. XVIII, which also equipped electoral Hesse (whose helmets were Prussian, with standard tips), therefore simply placed lions (Hesse Grand-Ducal) on Prussian helmets.
Some Prussian hulls had the holes for the eagle filled with a patch of basane on the inside, then re-drilled lower and wider (10cm~) with eyelets for the lion.
But others, like the photos below, have been drilled directly into the Hessian lion.
View attachment 43404
View attachment 43403
When the fittings are brass, it's an M95/ersatz14 helmet, and when they're iron, it's an M15/ersatz15 helmet.
When the fittings are brass, it's an M95/ersatz14 helmet, and when they're iron, it's an M15/ersatz15 helmet.
View attachment 43398View attachment 43399
I have many photos from the period, which attest to its authentic assembly.
Infra, a Hessian with ... a Prussian helmet, only the roundel is Hessian. Even some of the belt buckles are Prussian (The worst thing is that the monogrammed legs and the Litzen are from the Leib-Infanterie-Regiment !!!)View attachment 43415
View attachment 43416
View attachment 43417
Infra, a Hessian (buckle and cockade) wearing a Prussian helmet.
View attachment 43418
An artilleryman, Hessian belt buckle and landkokarde, but Prussian helmet. View attachment 43419
And finally, a Hessian with a Prussian point with a round base.
View attachment 43420

Wow, that is very informative and thank you kindly. So, in your opinion, this helmet is a genuine Hessen issue? May I ask what a rough value estimate is for both of these helmets? I also received a Imperial Battle flag that's fairly worn and stained of brownish shade and a U-Boat sized 50x85 cm Third Reich Battle flag which is fully marked and looks unissued aside for a slight stain in the white circle. I got all items in a package deal. I think I did okay on the price, but you never know until others can evaluate the situation.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm II]

Yes, leave it to Clovis to clear everything up. That's very interesting, and something that I'm sure is gonna come in useful. I have become.e very interested in this Hessian helmet for some reason, and I am genuinely glad to see it checks out.

 

[Hessen168]

Thanks. I don't know much about them either. I just have one classic JR168 officer which is pretty much a textbook edition, so these other ones that are slightly different perplexed me. That's why I thought I'd reach out to the pros.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Wow, c'est très instructif et merci beaucoup. Donc, à votre avis, ce casque est-il un véritable problème de Hesse ? Puis-je demander quelle est la valeur approximative de ces deux casques ?

Having mastered the 'standards' of each 'Land' in peacetime, I became fascinated by the 'Ersatz' of mobilisation. This obviously complicates things a great deal, and you have to distinguish between period equipment and contemporary knock-offs.

In France, your Entlisted helmet will sell for between €1,200 and €1,500. The original drilling for the Lion Hessois is a plus, but the lack of regimentation is a minus.

The artillery officer's helmet is rare and correct (no star for Hessian officers before the war). From the inside, it looks to me to be made of Vulkanfiber, and with a high ball, a poor quality sweatband, and red and green waxed canvas, this is a helmet made at the start of the war. The silk cape is missing. In France around €2,000-€2,500.

These are prices "between collectors", on forums, or "at the hammer" in auction rooms. For dealers such as Weitze, add €500.

 

[Jeff R]

This group is awesome.

Thanks for the extraordinarily informative post Clovis! Great supporting pictures too.