Offizierstellvertreter Pickelhaube? Needing your opinion!

argonne

argonne

Well-known member
Hi everyone! I´m new here, although I have already been on this site a few hundred times, to look for precious informations. (till today, only as a guest).
My latest find is what I think to be, a Prussian (private purchased)Offizierstellvertreter Pickelhaube. It is in great shape(no shrinking of leather), has always been in the owner family for four generations (more than 100 years), and I had the luck to buy it last week :D
It has never been cleaned or touched and has always been very well stored. All the parts are original ones. I will not try to clean it, just let it in its wonderful patina.
I ´ll try now to resume the facts about this helmet. Please tell me guys, if I am wrong...! The liner of this Haube is a pre-1880 private purchase pattern. This helmet has ever only had one Kokarde: the prussian one on the right side.(absolutely no trace of wearing on the left side). So I am thinking this helmet has been worn beetween 1887 and 1897. The wearer of this helmet must have had the rank of an "etatmäßiger Feldwebel" with the "Dienststellung" of an "Offizierstellvertreter" during his activ duty. (because of the four stars on the spike base). Maybe an officer Kokarde has been also worn during the activ duty...? ( I have already heard a few time, that Offizierstellvertreter were the only NCO rank which were authorized to wear a Pickelhaube with officers attributes). As the guy went into the Reserve, his helmet got a new wappen plate, without bandeau but with Reserve cross. As usual, he lost by passing into the reserve his " aktive Dienstellung" as Offizierstellvertreter, and was degraded in his last rank: Feldwebel. (now Feldwebel der Reserve). That would explain the fact of wearing this NCO Kokarde during the Reserve time. This Kokarde is the first pattern NCO with Porte-épée Kokarde, with small central hole for Rosette and with a dimension of 51mm.
The spike is not so tall as an officer spike, but has the perlring at its neck. It is also unfortunately not removable.
It would be great to hear your opinions!!! Thanks to all!
Philippe (from North-Germany).
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Philippe

I believe you are "over thinking" your helmet. IMO it is a perfect pre-1880 Prussian reserve officer spike. We have had discussions before on this forum about when the old pattern officer cockade (which you show here) was changed to the larger three ring pattern, and this cockade was designated as the "nco" pattern.

Regards

Dave
 
I fully agree with Dave. The cockade is of the older officer model. At that time, spikes on officer helmets were also significantly shorter than later.
Nice find. Congratulations.
Bruno
 
This one is from the same period. Oldenburg Dragoner Reserve officer. See the cockade, short spike and liner.
Picture062.jpg

Picture060-1.jpg
 
As the guy went into the Reserve, his helmet got a new wappen plate, without bandeau but with Reserve cross. As usual, he lost by passing into the reserve his " aktive Dienstellung" as Offizierstellvertreter, and was degraded in his last rank: Feldwebel. (now Feldwebel der Reserve).
Click to expand...

Thanks for joining us! What a great helmet for discussion! My two cents are not about the helmet so much but about the story. In general, officers did not move from active service to the reserves. They were commissioned either active or reserve. Reserve officers could move to the landwehr. There were exceptions but they were just that-exceptions.

This entire system is explained in the Handbook of Imperial Germany. ( notice the selfish plug)
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=60521



Offizierstellvertreter
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That rank was not used prior to World War I in 1914. A quote from the above book.
The wartime shortage of second lieutenants was supposed to be filled by promoting retired Vizefeldwebel or Feldwebel to the rank of Feldwebelleutnant. If the candidate had 12 years of service or eight years of service for the Landsturm, he could be appointed as an acting officer Offizier-Stellvertreter. Acting officers like this never were supposed to command more than a platoon. While they were treated as officers in the field, they were not permitted the privileges of permanent commissioned rank. Immediately upon demobilization or discharge, they reverted at once to their former rank. These ranks, while established in the Wehrordnung of 1888, were not used until 1914 and left a lot of questions as they had been used extensively. The Kaiser issued no less than two cabinet orders (AKOs) in late 1914 clarifying the rank of Offizier-Stellvertreter. There continues to be controversy over whether a person holding the rank of Offizier-Stellvertreter was considered an officer or a noncommissioned officer. It was possible for an Offizier-Stellvertreter to be promoted to the rank of Feldwebelleutnant.565
Click to expand...

And now for another question. I raised this before but got no answer.
The liner of this Haube is a pre-1880 private purchase pattern.
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Obviously this is an older style private purchase liner. But where did the pre-1880 come from? I have use that myself but I do not know of a source that indicates there was some sort of break and that that break in liner design was triggered in 1880. Any ideas?
 
Joe, two sources (without references) come to mind, Larcade's Casques à Pointe volume one, page 30, and Bowman's The Pickelhaube volume one, page 250.

Chas
 
I'll let the experts discuss this one and learn as they do. My input; Nice Helmet! I'm glad it's where it's being appreciated.

:D Ron
 
Hello guys! I really appreciate your comments! Thank you to everyone. But I must confess that I cannot agree yet with all arguments :scratch:
Tony from the Kaisers bunker writes on his site about the evolution of the Kokarden:

"1867: Officers, Fähnrich-New 55 mm Kokarde with twin rings on the silver affixed ring (Note this could be occurred in 1871. The exact date is not yet confirmed). Portepee-Unteroffiziere retained the 1857 officers-Kokarde, but reduced to 51mm, the Unteroffizier mit Portepee Kokarde".

Dave, Bruno, you told me this Pickelhaube is a pre 1880 officer helmet. OK, but then it must logically have the 1867 (or 1871) "twin rings" 55mm officer Kokarde, and not the 1867-1871 new reduced 51mm NCO with Portepee Kokarde that is definitely placed on my helmet!!
Dave: Tony is also clearly mentioning (a few lines above in his study), that the old pattern officer Kokarde (1857 to 1867) had a dimension of 75mm! For my appreciation and according to Tony´s references, it can then only be an NCO Portepee cokade which is placed on my helmet! Or may I have overlooked something?? :oops:
Bruno, thank you for the picts of your pre 1880 Oldenburg Dragoner Reserve Officer Helmet! It looks really great! :thumb up:
But what is the reason, that the Oldenburg cokade has been moved to the left side? Was this helmet after 1897 still in duty? (I can see on your second pict, that there is another cockade on the right side: Reich-Kokarde?)

Joe, if I really understand (and please tell me if I am wrong), the AKO of 17 November 1887 only creates the rank of Offizierstellvertreter "on the paper" and only allows the possibility for this rank to exist in the kaiserliche Armee. But in the reality this rank didn´t exist at all beetween 1887 and 1914?

Grüsse aus Schleswig-Holstein,
Philippe
 
Joe, if I really understand (and please tell me if I am wrong), the AKO of 17 November 1887 only creates the rank of Offizierstellvertreter "on the paper" and only allows the possibility for this rank to exist in the kaiserliche Armee. But in the reality this rank didn´t exist at all beetween 1887 and 1914?
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Correct!

The only difference is that the rank was created permanently "on paper" in the Wehrordnung of 1888 not in an AKO.
 
Yes, there is another cockade on the right side but not a Reich cockade... a Prussian one, and this is right!
Till 1897, since the Grand Duchy of Oldenburg was under harsch Prussian domination, the rule was that the Oldenburg cockade be worn on the left side, and the Prussian one on the left, therefore this is normal, the state cockade has not been moved to the wrong side.
There is still an oddity though: this pattern was for enlisted men, not officer helmets. I have no explanation for this, but this helmet is as "pure" as yours in terms of origin, and is extremely unlikely to have been messed with. As you know, till the use of cockades was regulated in 1897 many variations existed.


Bruno
 
Nice haube Philippe, I think it's GREAT that it is stimulating so much discussion...reads like a mystery novel! Congrats and Kudos! :cool:
 
Philippe:

I'll stand by my assessment of your helmet as an unmolested officer's Model 1871 helmet, which was introduced in the AKO of March 3, 1887. I have reviewed standard references (Larcade and Pietsch) concerning the AKOs, as well as a couple of obscure references and this is what I can relate to you:

1842 - A leather cockade is introduced for other ranks and officers (officers with a silver ring). This officer cockade is shown on page 13 of Casques a' Pointe. Note no double rings.

1844 - Portepee-Unteroffiziere were allowed to wear the officer cockade.

1867- Cockade size is reduced and made of metal. According to Casques a' Pointe, the cockade size is now 51 mm. There is no mention of Offizier vs. Unteroffizier cockade distinction in any of the references.

1897 - The Reichskokarde is introduced for both other ranks and officers, to be worn on the left side of the helmet.

1899 - According to Casques a' Pointe (page 22-23) as of May 15, the officer cockade size is 55 mm (note that the book doesn't specify that this is from an AKO).

Although I would like to find the AKO which specifically describes the larger “officer cockade”, it makes sense to me that the 55 mm “two-ring officer” cockades we see would be post-1897 (or post-1899 from above), although I can’t substantiate it. If anyone can provide me with either an un-molested officer’s helmet example or a contemporary picture with a single 55 mm cockade, I would surely like to see it. There are just too many of these single “nco cockades” on the older officer helmets (including mine), to believe that they have been screwed with and are not period “officer cockades”. BTW there is a picture of a Model 1871 Prussian general’s helmet with your “nco cockade” shown on Casques a’ Pointe, page 43.

Lastly, I would also remind you to not “put all of your eggs in one basket” with one reference. Point in case, I would take Larcade to task about when the private purchase silk liners were introduced. It seems unlikely that the silk liners were used seven years before the Model 1871 officer’s helmet was introduced in 1887! IMO, these silk liners started to be utilized post-1890, not 1880, which he states in Vol 1 of his book, as evidenced by the construction of these older officer helmets I have owned and handled.

Regards

Dave



 
IMO, these silk liners started to be utilized post-1890, not 1880, which he states in Vol 1 of his book, as evidenced by the construction of these older officer helmets I have owned and handled.
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My kingdom for a proper reference! No not really but I have been so frustrated by Larcarde for so many years. I really wish he was still here to ask simple questions of. I have a problem with that date also. Somehow I cannot wrap my head around an abrupt change. There must have been something -- advertising -- order -- article -- some sort of marketing that said hey if you are going to buy a helmet the way to do it is with silk liners. I have a problem understanding why all suppliers would change on a dime.
 
Yes, there is another cockade on the right side but not a Reich cockade... a Prussian one, and this is right!
Till 1897, since the Grand Duchy of Oldenburg was under harsch Prussian domination, the rule was that the Oldenburg cockade be worn on the left side, and the Prussian one on the left, therefore this is normal, the state cockade has not been moved to the wrong side.
There is still an oddity though: this pattern was for enlisted men, not officer helmets. I have no explanation for this, but this helmet is as "pure" as yours in terms of origin, and is extremely unlikely to have been messed with. As you know, till the use of cockades was regulated in 1897 many variations existed.
Click to expand...

Bruno,

Here is another idea and I think this is correct however I have no proof. An officer from Prussia who was appointed to a regiment wearing the symbols of a minor state would declare his " Prussian identity" with a cockade. I have seen this before in a previous Hessian helmet and have discussed this with several collectors. This methodology allegedly changed in 1897. Just more smoke -- I am always looking. Merry Christmas everyone!
 
dave mosher said:
Philippe:

1867- Cockade size is reduced and made of metal. According to Casques a' Pointe, the cockade size is now 51 mm. There is no mention of Offizier vs. Unteroffizier cockade distinction in any of the references.
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Well there is, but they are hard to find. Everyone seems to agree that the early "officer" Kokarde with the single ribbing was worn on the early helmets. The question is; until when?

Everyone also seems to agree that the Unteroffizier mit Portepee were allowed to wear this pattern in 1867 but reduced in size (according to Larcade Vol 1. p33).

The one question no-one can answer, is when did officer's adopt the double-ring Kokarde? From Larcade Vol 1. p33: (please excuse the rough translation)

"But, indeed, especially from 1867, the cockades of these Portepee-Unteroffiziers are smaller and less elaborated than officers. This ring is decorated with diagonal ribs and it has an edge in relief obtained with stamping. At first, this ring decorated also the cockade of officer. It remained thus for the Unteroffizier mit Portepee while the ring of the cockade of officer will evolve. "

And a point I have stressed repeatedly, is that if an AKO or what ever came out on a certain date, it took years for it to take place. Photos of premier Garde regiments after 1897 for example, wearing M1887 helmets, long after the M1891 was issued. So I see officer's wearing the "old single ribbed" Kokarde for many many years after they were supposed to have adopted the double-ring Kokarde. Anyone got a date??
 
I don't have a date for any of the changes, but I do know that in the current army, when new uniforms and equipment is issued, it still can take years before everybody has the new issue item. So, as you may imagine, there is still mixing of uniforms, headgear and such.

It's easy to imagine soldiers with private purchase items using them through their entire career (perhaps)... if the changes weren't too great.

:D Ron
 
What you wrote makes plenty of sense, Joe. According to Larcade, this was the rule for Olenburdg enlisted man helmets.
Here is the right side of the Oldenburg Dragoner helmet:
Picture064.jpg
 
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