Oldenburg Kokarde Question

[SkipperJohn]

I acquired this 1860-1871 Oldenburg Kokarde and had a question about the color. It was listed as "new/old stock" and appeared correct. It is stamped steel, magnetic (of course), standard thickness, and 57mm. I don't doubt that the Kokarde is original, I just question the color and the paint:

The colors match Kokarden off of Oldenburg Mütze and Schirmmütze perfectly, but not Pickelhauben that I have seen. I have noticed, here on the forum, that the Oldenburg Pickelhauben illustrated vary widely in the color of the state Kokarde. Some are pretty close to this light blue color while some appear more royal blue. Others seem to have oxidized so completely that they appear black and red, almost hard to distinguish from a Württemberg Kokarde.
What are your opinions on this one?

John

 

[Sandmann]

I think the color is plausible. Found this one at www.weitze.net which has the same color:
https://www.weitze.net/militaria/72...ischen_Infanterie_Regiment_Nr_91__223872.html

 

[coert65]

Looking at the kokarde, and it's color, I think it's been repainted John.
It all looks just too "fresh" to me.

 

[b.loree]

The ones that I have on my Oldenberg helmets John, are darker than yours. I will post some pics tomorrow.

 

[pickelhauben]

Does the red glow with a black light ?

 

[SkipperJohn]

Does the red glow with a black light ?

No, nothing glows under black light. The paint chips easily but does not dissolve with solvents.
There is no oxidation at all, which could account for it's lighter color.
Again, it matches an Oldenburg Schirmmütze Kokarde perfectly.

Did Oldenburg change colors? Is it possible that there were many variations in colors considered acceptable?

John

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

I like it, would like to see the back, but IMO I think it is good.

James

 

[SkipperJohn]

I like it, would like to see the back, but IMO I think it is good.

James

I'm not sure that seeing the back will help. I had to clean some material (glue and felt maybe) off of the back.
There were a couple of small, light blue, drips or runs on the reverse, but they chipped off.
Now the reverse side is just a matte black and gray/silver.

John

 

[Sandmann]

In my opinion the color is plausible, I saw Helmets with same colored Kokarden. But I agree with coert that this one looks repainted.
http://www.spandaumilitariashop.com/ww1-oldenburg-state-pickelhaube-cockade/
https://www.themilitarycampaign.co.uk/product/oldenburg-infantry-regiment-pickelhaube/
Here the same color has been used in an Oldenburg coat of Arms (picture Bleichenstraße at the end of the website)
https://schmid-ol.de/?page_id=218

 

[ussguppy]

Bringing back the thread with some opinions requested for an Oldenburg cockade. This came off a helmet I recently got, but now looking at it up close, I am unsure about the cockade. I have attached a picture of the wappen the cockade was paired with. I have also attached some cockades if different stages of wear to compare colors and wear. It is magnetic and it is the same diameter as my originals.

Thoughts?

Gabe

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

well, like I said before, I like it.

Think it is a good one.

James

 

[CLOVIS 57]

I'd like to draw your attention to the excellence of the current copies (I'm talking about the print matrix).



Above the authentic, below the copy.

Slight differences:
---The copy is one or two tenths of a millimetre thicker.
---The copy has a small bead at the edge of the center hole, curved inwards.
---The copy has daisy-petal-shaped center spokes, fully cupped and rounded at the end.

Available on the Net, an unpainted one costs 6€,



a painted one 15€

and once soaked in brine for 15 days, it costs 150€.

 

[John Josef]

Great post as always Clovis

It really makes me mad when people purposely deceive and profit from their deception

 

[CLOVIS 57]

A few years ago, I did a “guide” on cockades, copies compared to the authentic ones. I'll try to do the same here when I have a bit of time. In the meantime, on the French forum “La grande guerre” :
https://lagrandeguerre.1fr1.net/t98...authentiques?highlight=guide+sur+les+cocardes
Ditto for M91 and M15 post-side chinstraps

guide sur les cocardes - GUIDE : LES JUGULAIRES M91/95/15: modèles,diversités de fabrication, et copies

guide sur les cocardes Bonjour, suite à la vente de la très belle jugulaire "lourde" non évidée en maillechort de ce jour, je voudrais vous rappeler quelques d

lagrandeguerre.1fr1.net

It's in French, with an online translator. Even though there are lots of photos, just take a look and compare.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

For example, the following one is perfect, sold on a German “militaria” site called “Emig”.

 

[John Josef]

It's in French,

Just another example as to why it would have been a good Idea to pay attention in French class. Sadly, all those beautiful girls in the class were way too much of a distraction.

 

[argonne]

.

View attachment 52018
and once soaked in brine for 15 days, it costs 150€.
View attachment 52015

As already told on the French forum where we already have longly discussed about that point, I absolutely not agree with your point of view! Not in this case and even not in other cases of some other "demonstrations" you made according the guide you have created yourself, especially the case where you changed your judgement three times in a row about exactly the same presented cockade in the space of several months...Authentic, then copy, and finally authentic again... This is based on your own observations and has no value as a universal truth! Always make up your own mind based on your own observations and own feeling rather than believing this or that guide.

Further, as already asked on the french forum, I would like you to share with us the details of your own EM Oldenburg helmets shown here, particularly the Oldenburg cockades. Thank you!



The above presented cockade is mine and is mounted on my FAR62 M15 helmet for very long time. Helmet never has been on the public collector market or ever proposed for sale by professionnal sellers, it only has changed hand a very few times from private serious collector to next private serious collector. It always stood more decades in the same hands.
It is absolutely impossible that this modern ugly and shiny copy could ever have been the base of a "brine artificial alteration"
As I already told you a lot of time before: never forget that all modern copies always base on authentic material. More important is to know the proveniance of the item. I know it and have no doubt about it. The fact that copies exist shouldn't make you paranoid and see ghosts everywhere

Philippe

 

[argonne]

and once soaked in brine for 15 days, it costs 150€.
View attachment 52015

And further, dear Clovis, I would ask you from now on to stop using my own picts for purposes taken out of context that do not reflect the truth and that are in addition falsely captioned. Claiming that the cockade on my helmet was soaked for 15 days in a brine, that the ugly modern cockade copy costing 15 Euro, available on the todays web market, was used as a basis for artificial alteration and that in the end this ageing work would have cost 150 Euros is simply a false statement This is a pure supposition, an extrapolation and an assimilation on your own behalf, not based on proven facts. On the contrary, it's just a collection of unproven facts that have no veracity whatsoever. Thank you.

A much more intelligent and objective demonstration would be to show us, with a series of detailed photos, the development of such an alteration to this cockade copy, which can be bought on the web for 15 euros. Then we could really see and compare the results of such an operation. To assert without proof is easy, to present proof by example is much less so...

Philippe

 

[John Josef]

Dear Philippe and Clovis,

I had no idea of the tension and history between you two gentleman I sure hope you guys can work things out.

It's a shame to have such well respected collectors who contribute so much to the education of not only younger collectors but all collectors through the sharing of information and their collections not on the same page.

I'm certain I'm not alone in saying I really appreciate your contributions.

That French forum sounds really interesting, yet another reason I really should have paid attention in French class

 

[argonne]

the education of not only younger collectors but all collectors through the sharing of information

Hi John Josef

As far as I'm concerned and in all humility, I am not pretending to educate anyone. I only share my passion for collecting and have far too much respect to use, let alone without permission, other people's photos to claim or assert publically this or that without any proof (this is for me an absolutely no go) and what is ultimately not true at all

I don´t pretend to know everything and I prefer to keep quiet before making peremptory assertions that I can't prove.

Philippe