A postcard just arrived of a group from Königin Augusta Garde-Grenadier-Regt. Nr.4 which I bought for the Waffenrocks, but then I looked at the helmets and whoa! Look what we have here!
Period photo of a Garde Landwehr Chicken
- Thread starter Tony without Kaiser
- Start date
Mike Huxley
New member
OK Joe & Tony,
You have drawn me in as a newbie .... How can you tell that this is a Gd. Landwehr?? Please point out the details I should have spotted.
Just a dumbo's questions ... knock some sense into this thick skull
You have drawn me in as a newbie .... How can you tell that this is a Gd. Landwehr?? Please point out the details I should have spotted.
Just a dumbo's questions ... knock some sense into this thick skull
joerookery
Well-known member
A great question and a great photo.
There were several different flavors of this helmet. The one in the picture. I think is actually more rare than an "officer helmet". The guard landwehr existed in peacetime. There was not a landwehr unit for every different type of guard unit, and I do not know really who staffed them or at what level they were staffed. I do know that they did not mobilize and march out. As the guard was recruited from around the country apparently getting the landwehr units together for mobilization was a Bridge too far. Perhaps Tony will put the rest of the picture up and show us the back of the card. We might get more out of it who knows? I also think it is instructive that the guy does not have his chin scales on. You do not see one of these everyday.
There were several different flavors of this helmet. The one in the picture. I think is actually more rare than an "officer helmet". The guard landwehr existed in peacetime. There was not a landwehr unit for every different type of guard unit, and I do not know really who staffed them or at what level they were staffed. I do know that they did not mobilize and march out. As the guard was recruited from around the country apparently getting the landwehr units together for mobilization was a Bridge too far. Perhaps Tony will put the rest of the picture up and show us the back of the card. We might get more out of it who knows? I also think it is instructive that the guy does not have his chin scales on. You do not see one of these everyday.
Oui, ave carse mon Colonel! (bad French accent)joerookery said:
That is a beautiful helmet Joe. I hope to find an issued example some day.
I may have confused things by saying Landwehr, I think these guys are actually Reserve. I refer to the superposed Iron Cross as a "Landwehr cross".
I think these guys are Reserve, as they are relatively young, they are very well equipped with M1895 Pickelhaube, correct Waffenrocks, and Gewehr 98.
This is a tricky subject, but my understanding, is that the Landwehr and Reserve wore a Pickelhaube from 1842 to 1860, when the Landwehr replaced the Pickelhaube with the M1860 pattern Tschako. Below is the Wappen from one of my favorite Tschako, it is for the Garde-Landwehr. Note the little Garde star under the Landwehr cross.
This was worn until 1881 when the Landwehr once again adopted the Pickelhaube. For Mannschaften (Other Ranks) the eagle Wappen is the same for Reserve and Landwehr. Landwehr cross on the chest, no Bandeau.
For officers, it is different, Reserve officers carry the Landwehr cross on the tail feathers, Landwehr officers carry the Landwehr cross on the chest.
If anyone disagrees with anything, please jump in, I find the Reserve/Landwehr/Landsturm thing more confusing than anyone.
joerookery
Well-known member
Goodness, I remember this picture. What a great find, you made! I do not agree with your thought though.
Krinkle in 1889 made no differentiation between officer, and OR guard landwehr wappen. I think you are absolutely correct in both landwehr, and in guard landwehr up to a certain date. We once had a big discussion about an eisenbahn guard landwehr helmet.
I have no problem with the equipping or even the suggested age of the individuals. I have no idea how this unit was staffed. We really need Glenn to jump in here.
Is there anything on the back of the card? Thanks for posting it.
Oops. Sorry. It's post marked 1909. Get this: the text, which was in pencil, has all been erased?joerookery said:
What is lacking in that Plate from Das Deutsches Heer you posted, is that it only shows Garde Landwehr officer, it does not show Garde Mannschaften. I am just guessing of course on the Reserve ID.
joerookery
Well-known member
True. This is the point we came to before. At 1 point I used to think there were no enlisted plates like this. Obviously a lousy idea. I think we found in some reference, a that both reserve and landwehr OR could use the same plate. Based on the date however, we get back to there was a standing guard landwehr. There was no standing guard reserve. I have no idea about staffing levels. Does it seem that OR guard landwehr stuff is much more rare than officer ones? You can find an officer guard landwehr helmet. Finding an issued one is quite a bit tougher. Of course this dovetails into my complaint that there is no relative rarity publication about anything to do with landwehr crosses or reserve plates. I still have no proof of which units wore which helmet plates, other than the active units.
Sad that they erased the back. Can you see where it was posted at?
joerookery said:
No standing Garde Reserve? Really? I was not aware of this?
I have to apologize, I was scanning several cards last night for my web site, I picked up the wrong postcard. The one in this thread, has not been postmarked or sent. My error.
So all we can say, is that they are wearing M1895 Haubes, after 1897 with the Reich's Kokarde, and post 1898 as they have Gewehr 98s.
Hi Tony and Joe,
I am with Tony on this one. I believe that these chaps are reservists of the Königin Augusta Garde-Grenadier-Regt. Nr. 4 and not Landwehrmänner. My reasoning:
1. Landwehr men did not wear regimental cyphers.
2. Landwehr men usually wore a shako in peacetime.
3. Landwehr men usually wore the blue Litewka in peacetime.
Regarding the business of a standing Guard reserve in peacetime. Obviously reservists just reported to their former active regiments for their two annual training periods. The Garde-Landwehr as such was really just an administrative orgainisation akin to the Landwehr Bezirkskommandos of the line. The regiments existed in name only with Guards Landwehr Officers being assigned to a specific "Regiment" in the Army list for administrative purposes. Like their line counterparts, Guards Landwehr personnel were formed into "exercise" companies and battalions for the purpose of their stipulated mandatory training periods.
Regards
Glenn
I am with Tony on this one. I believe that these chaps are reservists of the Königin Augusta Garde-Grenadier-Regt. Nr. 4 and not Landwehrmänner. My reasoning:
1. Landwehr men did not wear regimental cyphers.
2. Landwehr men usually wore a shako in peacetime.
3. Landwehr men usually wore the blue Litewka in peacetime.
Regarding the business of a standing Guard reserve in peacetime. Obviously reservists just reported to their former active regiments for their two annual training periods. The Garde-Landwehr as such was really just an administrative orgainisation akin to the Landwehr Bezirkskommandos of the line. The regiments existed in name only with Guards Landwehr Officers being assigned to a specific "Regiment" in the Army list for administrative purposes. Like their line counterparts, Guards Landwehr personnel were formed into "exercise" companies and battalions for the purpose of their stipulated mandatory training periods.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
I'm convinced. I hadn't thought about the regimental cypher. I think that does seal the case. So these guys must be on a training time with their Regiment. This would bring me back to another question. Where did they keep these helmets? It sure seems as if there were not a lot of them. That statement seems to be true in varying degrees for all enlisted wappen with a cross.
joerookery
Well-known member
Okay, Glenn walk me through this one. I mean this is a real can of worms. There is so much to know here that I just do not know. I know how I got a reserve commission in the guards and I know how I could become a landwehr officer. But how did I become a guards landwehr officer? If I was assigned to other regiments as a landwehr officer. Did I still wear the uniform or helmet from the guard landwehr Bezirkscommando? There were only certain units in the guard landwehr [I don't have a list to you?] Why?
Joe,
The Garde-Landwehr structure was something of an anomaly. In the line, the day to day business of reserve and Landwehr personnel was regulated by a Bezirkskommando. Now as the Guards did not have their own Bezirkskommando this business was conducted by a control office at headquarters of the Garde-Korps headed by a uniformed retired field officer. Each active regiment of the Guards and other supporting arms had their corresponding Landwehr "Regiment". Reserve officers of the Guards on transfer to Landwehr status became officers in these corresponding "Regiments". As stated before they did not actually compose formed units but were an administrative tool under the auspices of the Kontrollbureau for the control of the officers of Garde-Landwehr.
A transfer of an officer of the Garde-Landwehr to another unit required Imperial approval. One assumes that a Landwehr Officer assigned to the control a provincial Landwehrbezirk then wore the appropraite provincial Landwehr uniform.
The "units" of the Garde-Landwehr are listed in the annual Prussian Army Lists before the provincial Landwehr Districts.
Regards
Glenn
The Garde-Landwehr structure was something of an anomaly. In the line, the day to day business of reserve and Landwehr personnel was regulated by a Bezirkskommando. Now as the Guards did not have their own Bezirkskommando this business was conducted by a control office at headquarters of the Garde-Korps headed by a uniformed retired field officer. Each active regiment of the Guards and other supporting arms had their corresponding Landwehr "Regiment". Reserve officers of the Guards on transfer to Landwehr status became officers in these corresponding "Regiments". As stated before they did not actually compose formed units but were an administrative tool under the auspices of the Kontrollbureau for the control of the officers of Garde-Landwehr.
A transfer of an officer of the Garde-Landwehr to another unit required Imperial approval. One assumes that a Landwehr Officer assigned to the control a provincial Landwehrbezirk then wore the appropraite provincial Landwehr uniform.
The "units" of the Garde-Landwehr are listed in the annual Prussian Army Lists before the provincial Landwehr Districts.
Regards
Glenn
Another one of our fellows with this helmet.
joerookery
Well-known member
Remember these guys? Glenn what is your take on this?
Could it be the situation during the war where units that were not even Garde, received Garde uniforms and Equipment as they were suppplied by the Garde Korps? For example, IR 262, wore Garde Litzen and Wappens as they were supplied by a Garde BA.
joerookery
Well-known member
I didn't know that. Your idea at least is logical--I cannot explain it.
dave mosher
Active member
Tony & Kaiser said:
Tony and Joe;
I was able to find this in my "archives". I owned this issued enlisted guard reserve for several years until I sold it to Randy T. It was maked on the rear visor "KBAG 1912".
Dave
