Pickelhaubenüberzug

[feel76]

Hi i need your help again. I have placed this question also on another forum. Maybe you knocan help. Is this Überzug original or not? I am looking for one for my VII armeekorps helmet. This would be a noicve one if it is original

http://cgi.ebay.de/Helmbezug-fuer-Pickelhaube-IR-15_W0QQitemZ280320755860QQihZ018QQcategoryZ34649QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

I am afraid these are VERY difficult to tell going by photos. The material is correct for the 1915/16 patter which was a grey/green, however for the pre-1914 red numbers, I would typically 'expect' to see the 1892 colour of tan. One thing to look for as well, are the hooks; for a cover with red numbers they should be quite large and are normally brass as they had to fit over the visor trim. The best thing you can do is ensure you can send it back if you are not happy.

 

[Lost Skeleton]

For what it's worth, I have a comparable Helmbezug for the same regiment; Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Friedrich der Niederlande (2. Westfälisches) Nr. 15. Both the eBay listing and my Helmbezug conform to the examples illustrated on page 61 of The German Army in the First World War - Uniforms and Equipment - 1914 to 1918 by Jürgen Kraus. I seem to recall this specific cloth being designated "reed green" in one of my older references.

The "anatomy" of my cover:

The red felt numerals are machine stitched in what I believe is called a "tackle twill" stitch.

The brass hooks Tony mentioned:

The spike cover is reinforced with a tan leather lining:

The hand stitched opening for the Hinterschiene Schiebeklappe:

Finally, a macro of the weave; a neutral colored warp thread and combined green and russet weft threads. When new, the overall impression is a mottled green; after being sun bleached, the color fades to near khaki.

I hope this helps.

Chas.

 

[DASH]

Tony and Chas - For what it's worth, it's worth a lot. Detailed and accurate information from knowledgeable sources is the the bedrock of any collectable.

Chas - as usual your photos, especially the closeups, are superb. I am about to dig out my 3 helmet covers for a close inspection.

A thread devoted to hemet covers (Uberzug, Helmuberzug, Tarnuberzug, or Helmbezug) would probably be welcomed by all. Like many other collectors, I have 3, but Zero knowledge about them.

Dan

 

[joerookery]

For what it's worth

I think it's worth quite a bit.
My original thoughts were the same as Tony’s. Based on the type and condition of the cover the red letters sent me a bad sign. I do not think it matches the Probe examples on top of page 61 of the source you cited Chas; based on the method of attachment of the hooks and a few other things but facing facts it is very hard to determine anything definitive from the pictures in the advertisement and on page 61. So who knows? Your pictures of the detail of the threads were very informative. I thought those mixed fabrics were not issued until October 1915, at least that's what I thought it said on page 58 of the same source but your colors are different. Unfortunately this is one place where there are no footnotes. But now I don't know -- definitely worth looking into. Very similar to the recent questions I had about red stenciled numbers.
I know I drive everyone crazy by questioning the secondary sources, but a while ago Tony brought into question a red stenciled number. This was logical, as the source materials indicated that the red numbers had to be some kind of material not paint. I dismissed it as a logical mobilization step just like the green stencils. While I might be wrong or right, certainly there are references saying I was wrong. For instance on page 108 of the new The German Infantry states that the number was red fabric and gives a footnote number 206.
Yet I continued to see stenciled covers in red. Recently I saw two very nice examples from an old collection in Connecticut. They "seemed" to be older than 1914 and a mark on one indicated 1912. Looking back on footnote 206 you are referred back to volume 1 page 59 of Pietsch where he relates cloth numbers based on the directive of 28 January 1897. Coming from Pietsch this seems pretty good. Though there are no footnotes Pietsch seems to have gotten his data bits from an article written in Heerskunde in the 1930’s by Doctor Kleitman and Pietsch. Same drawing is used by the two volume Kraus.
So I went off and found the article. Doctor Kleitman makes claims in this article that are inconsistent. For instance, look at the dates he attributes to Landwehr and Landsturm-Landwehr did not even have a helmet, and red Landsturm crosses? He does not say red cloth numbers only red numbers.

But what is the real killer in my mind and my mind only is that the AKO 28 January 1897 does not say this. Here is what it says. I have the entire AKO. There is no specification of cloth, fabric or paint.

So Doctor Kleitman and Pietsch cited this date as reference perhaps because it discussed helmet covers. Nevertheless they were wrong about the content. This error is repeated with a slight change about the material in volume 1 page 59 of Pietsch, and then referenced on page 108 of the new The German Infantry.
So what does this say about the helmet covering question? Still, a lot to learn...

 

[Lost Skeleton]

To bid or not to bid, I believe that was the question.

By participating in this discussion, I hoped to provide feel76 with a checklist whereby he could question the eBay seller:

1. By what method are the numbers sewn to the cover?
2. Are the attachment hooks brass?
3. Is the spike cover reinforced with a leather buffer?
4. What is the nature of the Hinterschiene vent?
5. Is the cloth a weave of multicolored thread?

I used my IR 15 cover as a starting point because I know it to be original. The material, pattern, and construction match issued FR 73 and Felda.R 34 Helmbezüge in my collection.

Granted, even had this criteria been met, the authenticity of the Helmbezug could not be guaranteed until the cover could be judged in a side by side comparison with a known original, or, at the very least, subjected to a black light test.

But what is the real killer in my mind and my mind only is that the AKO 28 January 1897 does not say this. Here is what it says. I have the entire AKO. There is no specification of cloth, fabric or paint.

Joe:

With all due respect, I see no "smoking gun" here. My rough translation of the underlined section of the AKO states: ...Number in accordance to the ratified Proben. Jürgen Kraus provides photographic evidence of two such Proben Helmbezüge (unfortunately, the submission dates are not visible) on page 61 of The German Army in the First World War - Uniforms and Equipment - 1914 to 1918. My line of reasoning would be that if an AKO stipulated the numbers on a helmet cover match those of the approved trial specimen, and the numbers on that ratified trial specimen are red felt, then the numbers authorized by the AKO are also red felt.

Chas.

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

// For instance, look at the dates he attributes to Landwehr and Landsturm-Landwehr did not even have a helmet, and red Landsturm crosses?

That is certainly bizarre. Landsturm wore black Wachstuch (oilcloth) caps until they were outfitted with Pickelhaubes in 1915. The Landsturm Überzug was not even announced until 02 March 1915, well after the switch from red to green letters and numbers which was ordered On 15 Aug 1914.

So a red Landwehr cross on a Landsturm Überzug and the date 1897 is simply incorrect.

When an oft-cited article becomes near-gospel, you have to wonder what other mistakes were made?

My thought for the red stencilled numbers, has always been that this was done during early the Aug mobilization, and it took time for that flip from red to green to occur.

 

[feel76]

Wow what a discussion. Really interesting. Unfortunately i have not won the cover so i have to look further to find one. Best would be an m15 cover but i gues it will be really difficult. I didn't know that it is so hard to determine a real one from a repro. Since you guys know so much about these covers isn'T it time to make a really good checklist?

 

[Lost Skeleton]

Attempts have been made in the past to do just that:

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3348

The best I can offer is a systematic analysis of pattern and cloth, but the photography takes time, the artifacts are few and far between, and I often feel like I'm just ](*,).

Chas. :-({|=

 

[DASH]

I have found this discussion to be extremely interesting and informative, and have also just discovered Brians sticky on the Überzug.

Cancell my thoughts on starting the Überzug thread.

Dan

 

[joerookery]

When an oft-cited article becomes near-gospel, you have to wonder what other mistakes were made?

I know of several and I am sure I have just scratched the surface. This is a good example of a retold story that changed each time it was told. Old myths die hard, and I have found that some audiences are not receptive to any changes. I have the AKOs that I am aware of regarding the subject in this helmet cover article. http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Uberzug.htm

I see no "smoking gun" here. My rough translation of the underlined section of the AKO states: ...Number in accordance to the ratified Proben. Jürgen Kraus provides photographic evidence of two such Proben Helmbezüge (unfortunately, the submission dates are not visible) on page 61 of The German Army in the First World War - Uniforms and Equipment - 1914 to 1918. My line of reasoning would be that if an AKO stipulated the numbers on a helmet cover match those of the approved trial specimen, and the numbers on that ratified trial specimen are red felt, then the numbers authorized by the AKO are also red felt.

Chas I understand your reasoning. What you say makes sense. My difference of opinion centers around the term "the approved trial specimen". This is an issue much larger than just helmet covers. If there was conformity in "the approved trial specimen"there would be no alternative view of "an approved trial specimen".

I floated this concept before and it received no traction. Can you find a Probe tag to a specific manufacturer? I have seen that. How exactly did the Probe system work? So then we get tied up in this mess of Probe, Nachprobe and Muster. It is not my intent to throw any fog on your wonderful thread. Your thought pattern is fully understandable to me.

isn'T it time to make a really good checklist?

There has been serious talk very recently about a book on helmet covers.

and I often feel like I'm just Brick wall

You think you do.

 

[joerookery]

I have offered a variety of standard helmet covers in the past, even some with a wide red stripe. The latter were used by officers. The red stripe made it easier for their own men to see them when they were issuing orders. The white covers were to immediately identify the umpires who made decisions on the proceedings during maneuvers. I saw photos of these men, who also wore colored armbands to further identify them. The photos I saw were from the 1903 period, but I would expect these were used prior to and certainly after that date as well. The cover is identical in construction in every way to a conventional kugelhelm cover, with the exception of its white color. Despite having collected for nearly forty years, I had never seen one of these covers before!

This quote comes from The Rittmeister website.
http://www.derrittmeister.com/headdress1.htm#pickeltop

No wonder it's hard for new guys to figure out what is going on. Where does he come up with this? :-x :-x

 

[joerookery]

Here is something different. I think I am up with red numbers, green numbers and blue numbers..... but yellow numbers?!?!

This cover does not show really heavy use. However, the outside is seriously sun faded and the colors on the inside show the same thread in a completely different color. Does it have something to do with this???

 

[Gustaf]

Hey Joe,
In what time frame were numbers painted on covers? They were sewn felt pre-war, also, would this be a Landwehr helmet with the Roman numerals? What does the 6 indicate? Is the 56 the size? Inquiring minds want to know. We have all seen Überzuege with numbers in a colour that was not red or green (hard to tell in a B/W photo) but this is the first yellow number I have seen, and I may be a retard, but I have never heard of blue.
Gsu

 

[joerookery]

In what time frame were numbers painted on covers?

I don't know. Certainly post mobilization, but there may be examples from before then also-I really don't know.

would this be a Landwehr helmet with the Roman numerals?

I don't think it has anything to do with Landwehr. The VI certainly appears to be an army corps marking. So it could possibly be Landsturm. I do not know what the Arabic number 6 is about. The 59 and appears to be a size. At first I really did not like the size marking. Particularly, I thought that the script might be phony. There is an additional marking that is in black and while I cannot make it all out it reinforced my faith in the marking. The background of the helmet cover seems also to be pretty firm.

There are a couple of theories for helmet covers with the Army Corps number only. Most of those apply to Corps units. Most likely train units. But I have also read recently that it might have something to do with the corps headquarters guard force.

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

According to my research, the Feldartillerie (Field Artillery) and the Fußartillerie (Foot Artillery) Überzug worn by the ammunition supply columns, were marked with Roman Numerals.

As the ammunition supply columns were an Armee-Korps resource, the Roman Numerals reflected the Armee-Korps, in this case, Munitions-Kolonnen XIII Armee-Korps.

As for why yellow, I have no idea. Does it look fake? Not at all. But what is it?

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

Very nice Joe, never seen one with Yellow before, looks very interesting and no doubt period.

James

 

[joerookery]

Sorry Gus but you opened yourself up for this one!

I may be a retard, but I have never heard of blue.

I picked up the blue thing from an old article in Heerskunde. It probably is somewhere else more modern. According to that source Marine infantry shakos had very large, dark blue numbers. While I cannot really remember seeing a blue example I can at least verify that the numbers were very large. In addition, the Marines had a very different #1.

Now if both of those numbers are supposed to be dark blue then just photographic differences make color identification difficult.

 

[joerookery]

no doubt

I certainly had my doubts when I only saw pictures. I am totally convinced now. However, I am with Tony and have no idea what it is. :army:

 

[Lost Skeleton]

I picked up the blue thing from an old article in Heerskunde. It probably is somewhere else more modern.

Hi Joe:

A 2008 reference by Rolf Klodt, Zur See und an Land – Zu Geschichte, Einsätzen und Uniformen der deutschen Seesoldaten, Marineinfanteristen, der Marinesicherungstruppe und der Marineschutzkräfte (Report Verlag, Bonn), supports the Zeitschrift für Heerskunde information.

In discussing the uniform of Das Marinekorps Flandern, Klodt describes …einen schilfgrünen Überzug mit einer aufgenähten dunkelblauen oder schwarzen Regimentsnummer aus Tuch (…a reed green cover with sewn dark blue or black regiment numbers of cloth). Additionally, the same Seesoldat des 1. Matrosenregiments, represented by your close-up above, is pictured on page 109:

Now if both of those numbers are supposed to be dark blue then just photographic differences make color identification difficult.

It might be useful to recall the “Sticky” on orthochromatic emulsion as it relates to cyan, the primary subtractive color for blue:

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2417

In my judgment, Tschakoüberzug regiment number 1 is black and regiment number 2 is dark blue.

I also regard this Tschakoüberzug des 3. Matrosenregiments stenciled number to be dark blue:

Klodt does not address stenciled numbers.

Chas