Is that yours Joe? It looks familiar? Very interesting! Note sure if I have ever seen anything like it, and it looks correct?
joerookery
Well-known member
It is not mine. It sold on eBay and when I was getting the owner's permission to publish he sent me a boatload of more pictures. It does look correct. However, an odd top I have not seen before or since. I cannot for sure determine if that is 100 or 190.
Ah, that's where I saw it. You might mention this Joe, as I think these are all yours and you have a basement of helmets you have not told anyone about!joerookery said:
Here is my latest contribution, I think it works here. Officer/private purchase (pick one) Line eagle Wappen with split prongs, and it appears (?) to be chemically darkened on the front. I say that, as the reverse is bright gilded and it appears never to have been on a helmet, so it would not be tarnish. Ignore the close-up color, something weird happened there with the color. The top and bottom photos are accurate.
This is a little beautyof the "rolled rim" variety. We have all seen these in original pics but this is the only one that I have ever been able to purchase and add to the collection. Interesting to see the side re enforcements stitched on separately. The felt shell is very stiff and hard (sorry no other way to describe it). No Regt markings just the name A. Muller The wappen is typical loop back with brass grommets in the shell. Joe, this is the second filz example that I emailed you about for your article. Brian
Lucky Bugger! My friend Peter Whamond has one of these as well. T
joerookery
Well-known member
Brian,
Is there any chance that there is a cloth cover on this? It does not look very Filzy in the photos. Is that Filz, that is being rolled under? Does that mark on the back have any significance? Thanks.
.
Is there any chance that there is a cloth cover on this? It does not look very Filzy in the photos. Is that Filz, that is being rolled under? Does that mark on the back have any significance? Thanks.
Hi Joe:
No, there is no cover. The shell is thick very hard felt. The edge is rolled under as can be seen in the pic of the interior. This particular pic was not showing up this AM but it is now as I write this. The only marks on the inside rear visor is the guys' name. Brian
No, there is no cover. The shell is thick very hard felt. The edge is rolled under as can be seen in the pic of the interior. This particular pic was not showing up this AM but it is now as I write this. The only marks on the inside rear visor is the guys' name. Brian
joerookery
Well-known member
Remember the Helmmachers? These are parts of the helmet they snapped together. I'm updating the article but I thought I would tease you with faux dome studs. --- you should see the liner(s).
I want to start a new variation here regarding felt helmets with shellac exteriors. I will provide pics shortly. In my collection, I have a pre 1891 Prussian Garde helme that has a black felt shell plus shellac exterior. This is a private purchase helmet with the underside of the visors coloured red and black. There were never any M91 posts on this helmet, the liner is the old squared tip variety and the shell has a high dome to it. This would suggest, that this type of filz helme was available pre 1891.
Last year, I worked on a Prussian Garde officer helme which was feldgrau felt shell, black shellac exterior with black leather visors. The fittings were of the zinc/gold wash variety.
Yerars ago, I had a Prusian Infantry officer black felt, shellaced shell, card board visors with zinc fittings.
At present, I am working on a Prussian Garde Pioneer EM helme that is black felt shell, shellac exterior, with vulcan fibre visors. This helmet is an M95, with pre war quality fittings. The EM liner is thick pre war leather. THe interior of the shell has been painted a tan colour to simulate leather.
So it would appear, that there were pre 1891 filz helmes with shellaced exterior. M95 versions, and mid war felt models with zinc/gold wash fittings.
I would appreciate hearing from members that either have or have had filz helmes with shelaced exteriors.
Regards, Brian
Last year, I worked on a Prussian Garde officer helme which was feldgrau felt shell, black shellac exterior with black leather visors. The fittings were of the zinc/gold wash variety.
Yerars ago, I had a Prusian Infantry officer black felt, shellaced shell, card board visors with zinc fittings.
At present, I am working on a Prussian Garde Pioneer EM helme that is black felt shell, shellac exterior, with vulcan fibre visors. This helmet is an M95, with pre war quality fittings. The EM liner is thick pre war leather. THe interior of the shell has been painted a tan colour to simulate leather.
So it would appear, that there were pre 1891 filz helmes with shellaced exterior. M95 versions, and mid war felt models with zinc/gold wash fittings.
I would appreciate hearing from members that either have or have had filz helmes with shelaced exteriors.
Regards, Brian
b.loree said:
I would agree completely old boy! This is right on the money. The precedent was set for Filz helmets long before the 1914 panic to equip the mobilized Army. In 1867 Sachsen (Saxony) adopted the Sachsen pattern Tschako which was made of felt and covered in black cloth which was worn right up to an including the M1915 regulations. Around 1900 those funky Filz helmets with the leather visors were German East Africa (Deutsche Ost Afrika). I wonder if the black-lacquered Filz was a private purchase option well before most people think, but few have survived due to the fragility?
joerookery
Well-known member
True, and maybe we can get Mowe to do a thread on the colonial haubes, but I was not aware of any before the mid-18 90s. So this is really exciting. I also was not aware of any early shellacing so the learning ears are on.
Here are a couple of shellaced Filz models that belong to Amy, one black and one reddish.
Now for my favorite, a reserve pioneer officer with black felt and fiber visors. Probably similar to the one you are working on Brian. I am trying hard to get this sold to me. So far without any success.
Here is my shellaced filz helme. I was incorrect regarding the liner fingers they are rounded. However, the physical characteristics of the shell and lack of M91 posts indicate that the helmet comes from the 1880s. I have the fittings taken off for cleaning. My appologies for the size of these pics, I am just getting into this pic posting biz. Brian
joerookery
Well-known member
Brian you wouldn't have a caliper would you? I thought the older helms were 4mm guage leather and the new ones 2mm. This is really different. Can I see a picture of the helmet front? Seems to be slits.
I have posted the pic requested Joe. The helme does have slits for the wappen. I do not have calipers however, the thickness of the felt on this helmet would probably be in the 2 mm range. It is certainly not as thick as the typical 1880's leather helmet. Note also the wide rear visor which is another older helme characteristic. I believe that these helmets were produced pre war for "lightness". In a previous post which is now gone thanks to the hacker, I mentioned working on a Bavarian officer helme that was stamped "federlichte" feather light. The wappen and chin scales on this helme were very thin. You mentioned the book "Fritz" in one of your postings. If you remember he complains about having to wear his heavy kugelhelme in the summer heat while in training.
Regards, Brian
Regards, Brian
A
Anonymous
Guest
This is just an observation, but I'd be willing to bet the crown was removed from that eagle. Look closely at where the eagle's head and the bottom of the Feldzeichen meet. Also, the eagle does not display the diagonally overlapping breast feathers normally encountered on Preußen Tschako Wappen. I'll bet that is a Pickelhaube Wappen, and if we saw the helmet today, as collectors, we would conclude it was bogus.
Hmmmmm.
Chas.
Hmmmmm.
Chas.
epsomgreen said:
Hmm...perhaps, but that is only an assumption my giant Ohio friend. Although yes, it could be a line 115mm example I have seen Tschako examples where the eagle was actually only 95mm but the Tschako was so small, the wings reached the top and were crimped back. Teeeeny Tschako. On these, (again, I have held several) the crown was there, but jammed under the Feldzeichen.
In my Little-uns vs. Big-uns or, Comparing Wappen sizes http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45 I show several examples where I believe that only one manufacturer made those "fingers touching" chest feather eagles. Too many exist that look absolutely Jäger, but with overlapping feathers. See the Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:22 pm posting. (Brian and Margo should number the postings).
But, again, Joe, GREAT photo, WHY a line eagle with that Feldzeichen??