Prussian Artillery Mannschaften M1873 Säbel

[RON]

Gents, sharing what I believe to be a Prussian Artillery Mannschaften M1873 Säbel that I recently bought.
What I mainly like about it is the fact it's a wartime issue sword as it's dated 1916 on the spine and is made by Ernst Busch Solingen:

If I'm right to think this is indeed an artillery model, I intend to display it alongside my Artillery NCO/EM M1910 Schirmmütze (until I find its M1915 counterpart ):

For those interested, there's another (identical) sword currently for sale on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180701591698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Absolutely Artillerie. You bought that from Pierre. Wartime issued example with the Ersatz wooden grip. Ron, the M15 Schirmmütze is more associated with the Kriegs und Friedens-Uniformen (War and Peacetime uniforms) for parades and walking out. Your M10 Schirmmütze is a perfect match in my opinion.

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

Great looking sword, congrats!

 

[RON]

Thank you both. Crossing my fingers so that it makes it past Canadian Customs without issues...

Tony: Funny coincidence actually as the sword comes from Pierre and the hat from your friend Peter (Pierre & Peter)

There's one thing I don't understand about these swords though:
Shouldn't the scabbard be painted black instead of chemically blued?

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

// Shouldn't the scabbard be painted black instead of chemically blued?//

On issued pieces, they are typically chemically blackened, like Jäger zu Pferde helmets, which were Black Manganese
Parkerized (developed in 1869) which involves an immersion process requiring the solution to be heated to approximately 190-210 degrees and the dipping time can range from 5-45 Minutes or so.

Having said that, you will find painted ones too. On the painted ones though, look carefully to ensure there is not chipped paint under the black, a sure sign someone has re-painted it.

 

[RON]

Gents, need your help in finding a good portepee to complete my sword.
Here are a couple of knots I found here and there on the net. Which do you think would match my sword if any?

Knot 1 - Seller's Description: 6th Batterie Feldartillerie Leather & Wool Portepee

Knot 2 - Seller's Description: 2nd Kompanie Artillery Leather & Wool Mint Unissued Bayonet Troddel

 

[RON]

Guys, any tips or clues on the above knots to match with my sword?

 

[Chip Minx]

Ron,

The one with the red plaited leather slider is perfect! The ones with the colored slides (white, red and yellow) are particular to the mounted artillery. The identification is correct, i.e., 2.Abt., 6.Batt.. I'd snap that one up! If you don't, let me know where it is! :lol:

Chip

 

[RON]

Hey Chip,

So the one on top with the bigger picture ('Knot 1') is the one I should go for (6th Battery Field Artillery) with my EM sword? Doesn't the fact its strap is made of leather make it an Officer portepee instead?
Would it also match my M10 EM Art. Schirmmütze pictured above?

What about the 2nd knot (much cheaper!), is it legit?

 

[Chip Minx]

Ron,

The second Faustriemen would work too (notice the white slider). The only difference is that it is a private purchase piece and I think you would rather have an issue example with your issue sword.

As an artillery Faustriemen, it would match your cap in theory, but the knot is a possible combat piece, whereas your cap is not.

Regards,
Chip

 

[RON]

Thanks Chip.

As this subject still confuses me tremendously, I need to recap a few things:

Portepee= Knot worn with a sword or saber (hence the name 'epee' or sword in French) by both OR & Officers with different styles for each?
Trodell= Knot worn on a bayonet only? OR, Off. or both?
Faustriemen (e.g. the 2 knots in question above)= Knot worn on a bayonet as well as a sword? By both OR & Off.?

Sorry for the multitude of questions (again) but knots aren't my favorite topic!

 

[Chip Minx]

Ron,

While there are exceptions to everything, generally speaking, here are the answers,

A Portepee is an officer's knot (also worn by Vizefeldwebel, Fähnrich, Feldwebel, Offizierstellvertreter and Feldwebelleutnant). They came with leather strap or with a woven metallic strap (Bavarian pattern). Typically, it is worn on a sword, bayonet or trench knife.

A Troddel is an enlisted foot troops knot with cloth strap (including the NCO knots of the Unteroffizier and Sergeant). Typically, it is worn on a bayonet. The one exception from the cloth strap that I can think of would be the Oberjäger Troddel, which had metallic wire in the strap.

A Faustriemen is an enlisted man's knot with leather strap, normally worn by mounted personnel (including the same junior NCO rank knots, as for the Troddel). Typically worn on swords, but I have seen a period photo with one being worn by a cavalryman on a bayonet.

Chip

 

[Paranoid_Womb]

There's little to add to minx his good description, but there's one important thing you should probably know about the portepees.
At first, these were used on sabers and degens, but as the use of these was discontinued for many units somewhere during the war (does anyone have an exact date on this?), you can also see them on bayonets and trench knives in original pictures.
Depending on the size of the bayonet, one could consider whether he liked to use a Groβe or a Kleine portepee.
Here's a comparison of two Bavarian Mounted Officer Portepees, big and small. Essentially, the model is the same, the addition of the red leather strap is non regulatory, but you can also find it on the small ones.
As you can see the small one is perfect for this Bavarian Schwere Reiter bayonet, whilst the big one would look a bit clumsy.

Here's also a picture showing a small Prussian Officicer Portepee:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/5818978866/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ze big one on an IOD89:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/5974380550/in/photostream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And yes, Fasutriemen were used on bayonets as well, this exact one is a military issue:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/5842508172/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[RON]

Thank you both for your valuable input :thumb up:
I'm carefully taking notes and filing all this precious info.
I guess the question now is why did officers need to carry bayonets to start with? They barely held rifles (the lower off. ranks maybe but I don't recall seeing an Oberst or a General doing so)...

 

[Chip Minx]

Ron,

It is a simple matter of tradition. Officer's traditionally carried swords into combat. Very early on in WWI it was realized that this made them easy targets for the enemy. As the officer casualties mounted, the higher command gave orders that the officer's no longer wear their swords in the field. The bayonet or trench knife was a way of continuing the tradition without standing out from the enlisted men.

Chip

 

[RON]

Chip,
As you surely know, the same thing happened during the Third Reich era. From what I read in the literature, due to the war situation, regulations of May 27, 1943 discontinued manufacture of swords and sabers although those already in service could still be worn on ceremonial occasions. Additional regulations of December 23, 1944 indicated that all officers ranks were to wear a more practical :!: , loaded pistol in place of the sword/saber or the dress dagger...

PW,
I can't find precise dates for when this happened during WW1 though...

 

[b.loree]

Excellent sword Ron. Your post and questions led to a really interesting exchange of information. We are so lucky here to have access to some of the top collectors in the world. Tony, Chip and Paranoid, I learned a great deal from this. Thank you.

 

[edwin]

Excellent sword Ron. Your post and questions led to a really interesting exchange of information. We are so lucky here to have access to some of the top collectors in the world. Tony, Chip and Paranoid, I learned a great deal from this. Thank you.

I learned a lot too and thanks for that chaps Ron, very nice sword!

Regards,

Edwin

 

[Adler]

Ron, not knowing that much about swords, the one you show us is one of my favorites. An excellent find I would say!
Very interesting information, I've learned something today and that's what keeps a forum like this alive! Thank you very much gentlemen!

Adler

 

[RON]

Great sword, great forum, great people... couldn't agree more! :bravo: