Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Starting bid was 3000 Euro
but I do not have a results sheet
and will not post results on line
only un-sold lot numbers
Steve
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
KAGGR#1 said:
he said is Russian ensemble for line- Kurassiere
from 1835 .

That is a good looking set. Notice how the horsehair looks like a straight plume hanging down in the front. That was permanent on the Russian model, but according to Osprey my helmet would have had a detachable one that hung the same way for parades only. Since that is the only place that I can find any mention of a parade plume I am skeptical. Also notice that the Russian model is more rounded at the dome. This is a later issue helmet, but the Prussian model retained the higher dome throughout. On both Prussian and Russian models the leather on the Raupe got taller and the horsehair got shorter as time went on.

One interesting historical note: The cuirass in your photo would have been exactly the same for the Prussians in 1814. The Prussian Kurassiers did not wear a cuirass from 1790 to 1814. In 1814 the Russians provided the Prussian Kurassiers with a black cuirass during the War of the Sixth Coalition.

Thanks for the photos and the input!

John :)
 

Dragoner08

New member
Hello John,

we first thought it would be an officer's helmet . In the helmet is a carrier - label . There is the name Mutius . We assumed it would be to this carrier . That's not right !

Gruß Gunnar
 

Dragoner08

New member
Hello Steve,

The ensemble at Kube has only 4000 , - Euro brought . Plus fees are only about 5000,- Euro ! That´s not much.

Gruß Gunnar
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
That's cheap. Yes, the Russians made about ten times as many of these as the Prussians, but still they don't show up every day.

Can I use the photo/picture of Herr Mutius? Notice his front plate consists of two pieces, the Adler and the brass plate are separate.

John :)
 
A wonderfull helmet. I search myself for such one.
Officers helmet or enlisted man's helmet?
A gilded front plate and the Kokarde made of silk, instead of wool, are the things make the difference. So your helmet and Dragoner08`s also, are officers helmets.
Something to these helmets in german:
Der Kürassierhelm von 1808
Eine Allerhöchste-Kabinetts-Order vom 23. Oktober 1808 bestimmte für die preußischen Kürassiere einen schwarz lackierten Lederhelm nach dem Muster der russischen Kürassiere. Die Ausrüstung der Regimenter begann erst 1809. Das Vorderblech und die Beschläge aus Messing, für Offiziere vergoldet. Am Vorderblech war für die Linienregimenter ein getriebener preußischer Adler und für die Garde ein Stern. Der Stern der Offiziere war versilbert mit emailliertem Mittelteil. An der linken Seite die Kokarde schwarz und weiß, für Mannschaften aus Wolle und für Offiziere aus Seide. Zur Parade ein Kamm von schwarzem Roßhaar. Der Roßhaarkamm wurde mit AKO vom 22.Januar 1810 zu jedem Dienst befohlen. Mit diesem Befehl wurde auch eine flache Schuppenkette statt des ledernen Sturmriemens befohlen. Ein mündlicher Befehl des Königs Anfang April 1814 bestimmte für Trompeter einen roten Kamm. Ab 1815 wurden gewölbte Schuppenketten getragen. Ab den 1820-Jahren wurden Helme mit einem aufgelegten Adler bzw. Gardestern ausgegeben. Der Helmkopf wurde im Laufe der Jahre kleiner und der Lederkamm größer. Das führte zu einer ungünstigen Gewichtsverteilung und der Helm rutschte leicht vom Kopf. Bei Geländeübungen mussten Helmsammler abkommandiert werden. Der Helm wurde immer mehr im Nacken getragen und deshalb der Vorderschirm steiler als bei der Einführung. Eine Kriegsministerielle Verordnung vom 10.Februar 1833 befahl eine schwarzlackierte Drahtklammer zum Stützen des Roßhaarkammes.
Das Kürassier-Regiment Kaiser Nikolaus von Rußland Nr.6 erhielt am 3. Juni 1835 als Geschenk des Zaren 613 Helme. Die Fertigung dieses Helmes unterscheidet sich in kleineren Details von den preußischen Kürassierhelmen, vor allem ist der preußische Adler kleiner und der Helm etwas höher. Die Garnitur russischer Helme wurde in der Regel nur bei größeren Übungen in Berlin getragen.
Durch AKO vom 22.November 1843 wurde der Lederhelm durch ein neues Modell aus Metall ersetzt.
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
Vielen Dank!

This is the second source that provides information on a Parade plume being worn only for parades until 1810. You have now peaked my curiosity about whether this is an enlisted helmet or not. I have two sources that say all Kokarden were silk until about 1813, so this is the first source I've seen that says officer Kokarden were silk and enlisted were wool. I also have differing sources now on whether or not officers wore a one piece, stamped, Wappen or if theirs were always two piece.

I researched paintings of the period like this one, allegedly of Prussian and French Cuirassiers. Notice the "Prussians" are wearing a cuirass so this would have to be after 1813. Also uniform details are at the whim of the artist.



I also have a photo of this helmet in Jan K. Kube's book, Militaria, Copyright 1990, and it is called an enlisted helmet.



I found it extremely interesting that your article mentioned "Helmet Collectors" that would pick up the helmets in the field because they kept falling off. I can see this happening. This helmet is a little top heavy.

The research never ends!

John :?
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
So John ;
Do you live in Texas ?

Years ago there was a collector in Germany
who only collected Kurassiere helmets and related items
I can say his name ; but no longer remember how to spell it .
He was a friend of Jarl Hartze of Stockholm , Sweden .
When the collector passed away
his widow told Jarl to come and select any one helmet
that he wanted . That is what her husband had asked her to do .

Jarl had taken 35mm color slides of this collection
and he made me a duplicate set
I need to get these out and see about
making photos from the slides
I would like to re-look at this collection
after all these years to see what early helmets were there .

Also the collection was placed with Jan Kube for sale .
This is how Kube got his "jump start "
Kube did not even yet have an auction
It was just a list of items for sale .

Steve
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
KAGGR#1 said:
So John ;
Do you live in Texas ?

Years ago there was a collector in Germany
who only collected Kurassiere helmets and related items
I can say his name ; but no longer remember how to spell it .
He was a friend of Jarl Hartze of Stockholm , Sweden .
When the collector passed away
his widow told Jarl to come and select any one helmet
that he wanted . That is what her husband had asked her to do .

Jarl had taken 35mm color slides of this collection
and he made me a duplicate set
I need to get these out and see about
making photos from the slides
I would like to re-look at this collection
after all these years to see what early helmets were there .

Also the collection was placed with Jan Kube for sale .
This is how Kube got his "jump start "
Kube did not even yet have an auction
It was just a list of items for sale .

Steve

No, I live in Arizona. I know that Kube is considered one of the highest regarded experts in this field. I just hope I don't get in trouble for showing a page out of his book!

John :)
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
John ;

I don't think the Kube would care ?
or for that fact even know about it .

He can be a hard -ass
I have done business with him for years
a lot more business in the earlier years

I have paid for his auction catalog for years
If you don't pay right away
he will send the first one of the year
BUT without his little magazine
then he will not send you a results sheet
then if no payment for the catalog
he cuts you off completely
No matter long you have done business
or now much you spend

Steve
 
The painting shows russian cuirassiers. Only one prussian Regiment had black cuirasses. The Garde du Corps and only for the spring parade.
 
KAGGR#1 said:
So John ;


Years ago there was a collector in Germany
who only collected Kurassiere helmets and related items

Steve

This was Georg Petschke. His writings are the Best Source for Early helmets.
 
Kabinetts-Order vom 23. Oktober 1808
Zitat:
V. Offiziere der Regimenter.
B. Kavallerie.
1. Der Helm für die Offiziere der Kürassiere ist schwarz lackiert, das Blech vergoldet, an der linken Seite die Kokarde schwarz und weiß, und zur Bedeckung ein Kamm von schwarzem Roßhaar.

Kabinets-Ordre an den Direktor der dritten Division des Militair-Oeconomie-Departments, vom 30. April 1809:
Zitat:
10. Der Beschlag am Helm für Cürassiere soll von Messing seyn, für die Offiziere ganz der nemliche, aber vergoldet.
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
kuerassier said:
The painting shows russian cuirassiers. Only one prussian Regiment had black cuirasses. The Garde du Corps and only for the spring parade.


I suspected that these were Russian Cuirassiers. I looked at so many period paintings on the internet that I must have started believing the titles.

"It can't be on the internet if it's not true."

John :)
 

Sergei1877

Member
I must tell you that the picture shows the Russian cuirassiers. This Battle of Borodino. Russian battle with the Saxon cuirassiers.
Astrakhan Cuirassier Regiment
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
This was Georg Petschke.

I think that are correct .
That name sounds right .

I think that I still have the old Kube sale
list . I am going to hunt for it .

Steve
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
These are Prussians. Mine is the fourth from the left:



Let me ask a stupid question (it will probably indicate my age), is it ever illegal to copy a photo from Google images?

John :?
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
I wish to thank everyone who participated in this thread. I have to admit that this went on longer than I expected, but I received several additional avenues for research from everyone's comments.

Some additional discoveries:

1) The Kokarde, credited to the French, was used by several of the 39 independent German speaking states prior to 1808. Bavaria began using a white-blue-white Kokarde in 1806. Bavaria fought for the French. The Kokarde was not adopted by Prussia until 23 October 1808 and it initially had nothing to do with rank. It was a symbol for national unity and national pride. Prussian Kokarden were black-white-black since their inception, but the style was varied and largely based upon the Regimental Commander's desires. The Kokarde was primarily used only by the military at this time and it took time to phase it in between all units. The infantry, Jagers, and Landwehr still used a Feldzeichen on their bell top shakos. All Kokardes were silk. Wool was not adopted for the Kokarde until 1813 and was phased in between 1813 and 1816, primarily to save money. Officer Kokarden were the same as enlisted; however, sometimes officers would have silver thread sewn into the white area. The Prussian Kokarde was standardized by Friedrich Wilhelm III on 22 February 1813 (one month before declaring war on France in the War of Liberation) and was mandated to be worn by all men 20 years old and older. It was to be worn on their hats. Women were not allowed to wear the Kokarde. Anyone refusing military service or showed "cowardice before the enemy" was denied the right to wear the Kokarde. Reaction to this order was said to be "extremely enthusiastic".

2) Officer uniforms did not differ much from enlisted uniforms except that officers had to pay for theirs. This may explain the continued use of the tricorn by officers since this "new" helmet could not have been cheap, even then. Officers were given a great deal of latitude on their uniforms. Uniformity was at the discretion of the Regimental Commander. Numerous references cite instances where regimental commanders placed "undue hardship" on their troops and junior officers by requiring additional uniform items. This was especially common in French regiments. One reference from the period cites that a regimental commander demanded all uniforms be the same color so troops showed up for parade with "paint still dripping" from their uniforms. Enlisted uniforms were considered livery denoting a subservient position of enlisted to officers. The Portapee and the epaulet distinguished the officer ranks, not the Kokarde. The Portapee was the only officer designation until 1806.

3) The parade plume used on the M1809 was simply a bunch of horsehair tied at one end and stuck into the front Raupe support of the helmet. It was used for parades only. It became a "fashion statement" or, we could say, en vogue, so it's popularity made it standard on 22 January 1810. Because the removable plume would fall out it became a permanent part of the helmet starting in 1810. More horsehair was simply sewn into the front of the Raupe.

4) One reference stated that "officers wore a queue and enlisted men wore a clubb". I had no idea what this meant, so I did an internet search and found this link:
https://www.nwta.com/courier/6-96/hair.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Very interesting --- if you're into period haircuts!

Thank you all again for your input.

John :)
 
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