Prussian NCO

J.LeBrasseur

J.LeBrasseur

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Staff member
I am posting this for fellow forum Member Jerry, I apologize for the photo's, I thought they would come out better, should have gone outside at the show, but it was cold.

Prussian Reserve helmet with Officer parts for an NCO....

stars on top two differant sizes...

very interesting markings inside, the date stamp is 1904 then the other markings, Jerry si looking for feedback on this one.

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In my humble opinion Jerry, you will never-ever find on an issued helmet, a private-purchase Wappen or any other 'upgrade' parts for that matter. I do not beleive the 'NCO' story on helmets with a mix of parts and believe it to be collector urban-myth. I am afraid that I would say without hesitation that this to me, is a parts helmet. If it was mine, I would looking for an issued line eagle Wappen and round spike base brads. Then it would be correct.
 
I do not beleive the 'NCO' story on helmets with a mix of parts and believe it to be collector urban-myth.
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I understand this position but I am on the other side of the fence. The more I research it the more plausible it seems not for NCOs but acting officers. I have no proof.
You could be appointed as an acting officer Offizier-Stellvertreter. Acting officers like this never got to command more than a platoon. While they were treated as officers in the field, they were not permitted the privileges of permanent commission rank. Immediately upon demobilization or discharge they reverted at once to their former rank. It was possible for an Offizier-Stellvertreter to be promoted to the rank of Feldwebelleutnant.
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The markings are indeed very interesting and without Jerry's permission I posted the pictures on our list. I will remove them if Jerry cares. There are two marks JR 31 and L. JR 31. The markings lead one to believe that the helmet was handed down from the active regiment 31 to the Landwehr regiment of the same number. This sort of alignment is actually the exception to the rule and would be somewhat rare. However, if you track it you will quickly find out that JR 31 was Thuringia - 8
Infanterie-Regiment Graf Bose (1. Thüringisches) Nr.31 -- L. JR 31 was related to the Hansa cities and specifically RJR 31 So how does this unit from Thuringia get hooked up with the Landwehr unit from outside Hamburg?

:? :? Drumroll please... tut-tut

JR 31 (1. Thüringisches) was originally also "Magdeburgisches". It was relocated from Erfurt in Thuringia to Altona, a suburb of Hamburg, in 1871, and lost any connection to Thuringia except the name.
 
joerookery said:
I understand this position but I am on the other side of the fence.
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I just cannot see an Offizier-Stellvertreter taking a Quartermaster issued Crown-property Pickelhaube that he had signed for, going out and buying an officer's eagle, spike, chinscales etc so he could 'modify' his issued helmet. On an issued helmet with officer parts, I am quite sure who changed the parts; a militaria dealer or a collector who did not know better at some point over the life of the helmet.
 
I second Tony's opinion that this is a parts helmet and that the "NCO helmet" notion is urban legend. In addition to the points Tony raised I would also offer the following to bolster the parts helmet argument:

1. The spike/base is not properly oriented on the body.
2. The 3 stars visible in the photo do not match one another.
3. Two of the stars have screw post retainers and two have split pin
retainers.

If this were my helmet I would also be looking for an issue front plate and domed spike base retainers. With the correct parts this would be a very nice helmet.

Reservist1
 
I just cannot see an Offizier-Stellvertreter taking a Quartermaster issued Crown-property Pickelhaube that he had signed for, going out and buying an officer's eagle, spike, chinscales etc
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I have no proof but I see it as plausible. I'm not going to be able to convince anyone and I'm not even sure I would want to. I just see it as plausible. Based on the way their training went I would expect the Offizier-Stellvertreter candidate to arrive at the training center with an issued helmet. Could not his platoon have chipped in to award upgrades on the helmet for the boss upon his return? Would he immediately buy a new helmet? I do not see adjusting the issue property as a big problem. But this is all supposition. I understand the opposite view and cannot fault it.
 
Perhaps the strongest argument about the "urban myth" argument to me is that from a relic perspective you have to try to explain the mixture of parts when you decide to turn the helmet over to another collector. It may well be plausible but it certainly is not the norm and whoever has such a helmet will always be explaining it. Extremely difficult uphill battle that might be wrong in the first place. From a collecting point of view I would agree with Tony and R1. But then again I have something like this and I absolutely love it so I don't follow my own advice!
 
Well guys this helmet is very plainly marked on the front visor Off- Stellv Karl Otto. It came out of a gunshow in the mid 70's . This is a helmet that needs a hands on inspection to understand its originality. IMO this is not a parts helmet that a dealer put together or was thrown together after the war. You can see by the pics that it did have a cover at one time too. This is the real deal an Offizier-Stellvertreter. Slim couldnt get the details of the markings on the front visor indicating the rank. Thanks for your opinions and I welcome more. :D :D Jerry R.
 
Jerry: I would offer the following for consideration.
Offizierstellvertreter was a war time only rank whereby long serving NCO's were promoted, in the field, to command platoon size units. Offizierstellvertreters were not commissioned and upon discharge or the end of the war they immediately reverted to their previous NCO rank. The uniform worn was the same as a vizefeldwebel with the exception that Offizierstellvertreters wore guard lace on the cuffs and shoulder straps. The shoulder straps also had metal regimental numbers. The shoulder strap was the only real indication of Offizierstellvertreter rank.

There is nothing to indicate that Offizierstellvertreters wore anything but an issue hemet with senior NCO kokardes.

Additional information on Offizierstellvertreter uniforms can be found in the following:

Pietsch, volume 1, page 27,
The German Army Handbook, 1918 , page 24,
The Pocket German Army websidte (http://www.users.hunterlink.net.au/~maampo/militaer/milindex.html)

I hope the above is helpful.

Reservist1
 
Some thoughts for consideration:

1. In the source quoted above Pietsch does indeed discuss Offizier-Stellvertrater and the uniforms as dictated in November 1887. I don’t believe helmets are specifically mentioned either way. But as stated this was a peacetime thing about wartime rank. .Upon mobilization there was some confusion about this never executed rank. An update was provided to the November 1887 directive in the form of an AKO in September of 1914. This was intended to quell the confusion and stated that the rank was higher than any NCO rank. It fell short of calling this guy an officer. That’s why in my mind this guy is neither fish nor fowl.

2. The handbook does give a great description on page 24. You can interpolate that the guy should have an issue helmet upon the onset of training. It also however, lists these guys as officers and specifically not as noncommissioned officers on page 21 of that same reference. It does reiterate that they were not commissioned. Pay charts and rank listings done before mobilization leaves this rank out. The rank is not even mentioned in the 1914 Wehrordnung! Johan Summers on page 16 of volume 1 of his work also lists this rank under officers.

Hope this is helpful.
ako27sep14.jpg
 
The German Army in the First World War, Uniforms and Equipment 1914 - 1918 by Jurgen Kraus discusses, in the section titled Badges of Rank for Troops and NCOs, page 244, the Offiziersstellvertreter rank. Kraus states that the position was a new rank of NCO. Prussian War Ministry samples of the special Offiziersstellvertreter shoulder straps are shown on page 247.

Reservist1
 
This is an old thread that has some more fire recently added to it. In the fantastic book "on the other side of the wire" by Ralph Whitehead are many pictures from the Kriegtagbuch aus Schwaben. These generally are similar to death card pictures detailing the who and the when of fallen officers.

As far as I have gotten is to the end of 1914. All of these were members of the XIV reserve Corps. There are far too many of them for it to have been a typo. A classic example is Lieut. Heinrich who is shown on page 102. not only is he listed as a lieutenant d.L. but also in parentheses as an Offiziere Stellvertrater. This guy died in October 1914. Only officers are pictured in this book. This guy is listed as both an officer and an Offiziere Stellvertrater.

I contacted Ralph Whitehead and asked him what gives. He also did not know but said that clearly in different lists these individuals were listed with different ranks. I think that Ralph is probably the world's expert in Verlostliste. So the immediate question was worth these guys promoted upon death?? The pictures are clearly older when the guys were a one-year volunteer or a reservist. There are both lieutenants of the reserve and of the Landwehr.

This solves nothing -- proves nothing -- just more wood for the fire. In these cases the gentleman involved were both fish and fowl. :crybaby: :crybaby:
 
I'm no expert on this either way, but can only speak from what I've seen in the military. Perhaps an NCO with a field promotion did a little 'salvaging' from 'unused' and further 'unneeded' by their owners... officer helmets.
Just a thought.

:D Ron
 
reservist1 said:
There is nothing to indicate that Offizierstellvertreters wore anything but an issue hemet with senior NCO kokardes.


Reservist1
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I think I may have an Offizier Stelvertreter helmet that my contradict this, it is a normal M1915 Bavarian helmet, but has no acceptance markings in it.
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Best
Gus
 
When I was in the military, I dressed up my helmets and even purchased exact, regulation replacements to turn in so I could keep the issued helmet that I'd modified.
I can imagine Germans, with all of the cool possibilities for these helmets might do the same (?).

Just my thoughts....

:D Ron
 
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