Prussian Spike-bases, "Kleeblatt" form

K

Kaisertreu

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Hello All...New to Pickelhaubes..Old to Collecting Prussian (Just an old Prussian!)...Question....Have Prussian Officer of General Staff Helm purported 1860/1880 period...No real problem EXCEPT..."Kleeblatt" spike base has 4 Equal length arms...I always believed that the forward arm was shorter, making a "Cruciform" pattern..Also, spike pillar has 5 ventholes rather than 2...Is this a correct base on the helmet?...Is it even a Prussian Army Spike base?....To what period does it belong?...I have over the years seen this base style in use on Beamten Helmets, but never on a General Staff Officer Helm...Any Thoughts appreciated....KAISERTREU
 
Hi and welcome to the forum. I can not be of too much help here as I have sold my Prussian generals helmet. However, I was told by Randy Trawnik years ago that all Prussian generals helmets have a unique spike top which even though fluted like the Bavarian version is different in one small characteristic.
The difference is that the lip (edge) of the spike top screws on flush with the spike neck. It does not curve over the top of the spike neck like all other officer screw spikes including the Bavarian fluted spike. My generals helmet spike was like this but it did have the one shorter arm. I have no clue when this feature was introduced on generals helmets ie right from the beginning or was there some change in the 1890s etc?? I hope this helps somewhat. Again I am no expert on the generals helmet and have only handled the one which I owned. Brian
 
Thanks Brian...I have collected Helmets on & off over many years, though Prussian Orders are my primary interest, so I guess I never took the time to pay close attention to the matter....But looking at all the photos I can find, seems to me that the front arm if the Kleeblatt is shorter than the other three...But on this helm it appears that the base has always been unchanged, as the indentation of the leather bears it's impression very clearly...I'd like a resolution to this if possible, before I tear it down for restoration, as if it is correct as assembled, I'll put it back as at present, but if incorrect, I'll replace the Kleeblatt with a proper one....Thanks again....Kaisertreeu
 
Have at present no photos of helm or parts...Can only say that it appears as any typical Prussian Kleeblatt Spikebase , except that all 4 arms are of equal length, when typically the ones I have knowledge of are 3 arms one length, with the 4th (which points to the front) substantially shorter, thus leading to the descriptive "Cruciform" term being used..The "Pillar" of the spike has 5 ventholes, and the somewhat more ornate style "Pearlring"..It is soldered permanently to the "Cross" base, and has a fluted, or "Kanalierte" spike....It is of a silver metal, fastened to the helm with the small size 8 point stars. The Helm was presented as that of an Officer of the Prussian General Staff, which from my research appears to be correct...My only question relates to the equal length of the four arms of the Kleeblatt....KAISERTREU
 
There is a picture of such a helm on page 21 of Hildebrand volume 1. It has a shorter arm in front as well as a few other quirks. The photograph has a fluted trichter with a "Bavarian officer" lip.

The only equal distant ones I know of are Hessian or nonmilitary. Hope this helps a little bit.
 
joerookery said:
//The only equal distant ones I know of are Hessian or nonmilitary. //
Click to expand...
Joe, take an Hessen helmet and measure the arms; the front is shorter on Hessen helmets too. But not by much, so to the eye, they can appear the same when they are actually not.
 
Thanks! I learn something everyday. Currently I'm working through why the Hessians were not covered by the Prussian AVB. I have you to thank for that. I started chasing around looking at documentation because of your cool 115 helmet. What I originally thought was wrong and I am stuck on the budget stuff -- keeps me young. Some were around here I think I have a teil 2 type Bekleidungsordnung for Hessen. As my son always says "organization is key". If only I would have listened to him earlier.
 
Thanks Guys...I haven't removed the parts for restoration yet, but I measured the length of the 4 arms of the Cross, from the outer diameter of the spike pillar, and they are all exactly the same...@ 2 1/8 inches..I don't think I can recall having seen this pattern Kleeblatt used anywhere on a military helmet, and for that matter, I cannot be certain that I have ever seen it used anywhere else ever...Perhaps it is a private made/private purchase item as the owner was of at least Major's rank, and I assume that he would have been responsible to buy his own helmet & it's furniture....I'm still searching photos....I don't have Johannsen's book of some years ago, but perhaps the answer may be found there, if anyone has the book and the time to root through it....Thanks again...
KAISERTREU
 
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