Prussian Sword Portepee or Bayonet Trodell

[RON]

Here's the dilemma gentlemen:
I recently bought what is theoretically a Prussian Infantry Officer sword portepee yet the only imperial blankwaffen pieces I have that don't already carry their own knots are:
1- Prussian Artillery Lion-Head Officer Säble with nickeled double-hanger scabbard ring (pre-1906 production)
2- S98 nA long Quillback Bayonet (prob. export to Peru or Turkey)
3- S98/05 nA Sawback Bayonet d/1916

I'm more enclined towards displaying my portepee with No.3 but am not sure as to whether (infantry) officers carried combat bayonets at all... Unless NCO mit portepee were allowed to have these wrapped around their bayonets?

Here are some pics of the portepee in question:

 

[reservist1]

Ron: This is not an Imperial German officer sword knot. It is a bayonet knot and the style is indicative of the Third Reich era.

Reservist1

 

[RON]

Hey R1, these German portepees & troddels are a real challenge...
Often you see WW2 portepees on WW1 swords simply because the officers would wear their swords all through both wars or during veteran parades.
Regarding this item in particular, I've seen a similar one--but with golden threads instead of yellow--advertised as a Reichswehr bayonet troddel and on eBay, 2 separate sellers have sold a similar knot each while describing it as a WW1 Prussian Infantry Portepee.
Is there some place in the literature where this one is actually described as a WW2 knot?

 

[reservist1]

Is there some place in the literature where this one is actually described as a WW2 knot?

Ron: See Uniforms and Traditions of the German Army, 1933 - 1945 by Angolia and Schlicht, volume 2, Chapter 12.

See also Die Uniformierung und Ausruestung des deutschen Reichsheeres 1919 - 1932 by Schlicht and Kraus for information on the use of this style knot beginning about 1928.

The golden yellow color of the slider, stem and crown merely identify the company of the wearer. In this case the 11th company if the owner were an infantryman.

Reservist1

 

[RON]

Thanks for the update R1. Unfortunately I have no access to such books at the present time. I will need to buy me a good reference manual once and for all when I visit the family in Montreal.
Meanwhile, are you corroborating that the above-pictured knot is a post 1928--which makes it Reichswehr-Third Reich era--Infantry 11th Co. Bayonet Troddel? EM I presume or did Officers wear bayonet & troddels too?
Any good online sites for futher info (while I get the books)?

 

[reservist1]

Ron: The bayonet knot is post 1928 and is for enlisted troops. The colors indicate 11th company.

Officers did not wear this pattern knot. An officer in the Imperial period would have a knot in the pattern of an officers sword knot,(leather strap with silver buillon crown and ball).

Reservist1

 

[RON]

Thanks R1!

When you have a minute, could you let me know about the 2 portepees in the following prevkious thread of mine please? Are these both matching WW1 knots or post-era ones in your opinion? The silver knot on the Bavarian sword sure looks very close to a Wehrmacht officer dress dagger doesn't it?
http://pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5957&highlight=

 

[reservist1]

Ron: The knot on your Bavarian sword does appear to be a 3rd Reich era dagger knot. If the leather strap on your other knot is black it would be Imperial. If the leather is gray/green the knot is post World Warr I.

The following photo shows two Imperial officer sword knots. The upper knot is from Baden as evidenced by the red center stripe and red edging on the slider. A Prussian knot is the same pattern except that it does not have the red stripe or red edging on the slider.

The lower knot is a Bavarian officer's sword knot.

I have also attached a chart which may be useful showing some of the more common Imperial bayonet knorts.

Reservist1

 

[RON]

Hey R1, thanks alot for those attachments, especially the much needed chart. :thumb up:

The issue of the German blankwaffen knots is quite complex and I bet the military themselves often got confused with the different designs (Imperial vs. Reichswehr vs. Third Reich; Officer vs. EM) and color codes.

Here's another 2 imperial knots that confuse me as I can't find them in your pictures & chart:
Knot 1 - Just sold on eBay as a 2nd Company EM Bayonet Troddel:

Knot 2 - Currently for sale on eBay as a Prussian Officer Sword Portepee:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120737938683&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

[reservist1]

Ron: The first knot you pictured is an Imperial German bayonet knot from the 1st Bn. 2nd company. The chart I provided does not have every color combination.

The knot that is for sale on ebay is not Imperial German. It is a 3rd Reich Luftwaffe faustriemen (side arm knot). These were worn on the bayonet frogs of enlisted Luftwaffe personnel.

As a rule of thumb concerning bayonet knots, Imperial knots have an open ended tassel/ball. Looks sort of like a brush. Late Reichwehr and 3rd Reich bayonet knots & faustriemen have tassels with closed ends.

Reservist1

 

[RON]

I guess eBay is the wrong place for proper info on such collectibles.

OK, just to properly close this crash course on German Blankwaffen knots, I just need to clarify the following definitions:
- PORTEPEE: Sword & saber knot. Could be worn by Officers & NCOs. Did the EM who carried swords (e.g. Cavalry) get to wear a portepee too?
- TRODDEL: Bayonet knot. Limited to EM & NCO I presume (since officers wore swords and/or handguns).
- FAUSTRIEMEN: Isn't it the same as a Troddel? Otherwise what would be the difference? Wearing the knot around the frog vs. the bayonet itself?

Many thanks again for taking the time to patiently explain all this to me (I can picture you banging your head against the wall by now ](*,) )

 

[Chip Minx]

Ronny,

The difference between the Faustriemen and the Troddel is two fold. First, there is the physical difference...... the Faustriemen had a leather strap and slider, whereas the Troddel had a woven cloth strap and cloth covered slider. The other difference is those who wore them. The Faustriemen was generally used by mounted troops on swords (though I have seen period photos of them on bayonets of mounted troops. The Troddel was normally worn by foot troops.

The Portepee was worn by officers, Fähnrich, Vizefeldwebel, Feldwebel, Offizierstellvertreter and Feldwebelleutnant. No lower ranks wore them, regardless of their branch.

Chip

 

[RON]

Thanks Chip!

 

[RON]

OK, here's another German knot...
From what I've learned thus far, it is of the Imperial era design, having an open-ended tassel/ball which makes it look like a paint brush...
It has a leather strap which could make it a sword (or bayonet) Faustriemen worn by mounted troops...
Am I correct? If so, which Regiment is it?

 

[emilysoft11]

thank you again for your sharing.. :-? :???:

 

[Paranoid_Womb]

It will be nearly impossible to link a troddel or faustriemen to a certain regiment. They are hardly ever marked by the way. From EM versions all we can say from this is the battery, eskadron, company number.
This is i.m.o. a private purchase faustriemen that would be appropriate for EM of 1st eskadron in a Cavalry unit (except for Husars and Bavarian Cavalry) or a mounted EM of the 1st battery of a Foot Artillery regiment. If the slider would have been brown, I'd say 1. Battery of a Field Artillery Reg. It is a private purchase model as there is a stem in between the crown and the slider, miltary issue models lacks this feature i.m.o..

 

[RON]

Matching the proper portepee, troddel or faustriemen with its corresponding imperial sword or bayonet is definitely not my strong point...

Would the below--described as a Prussian Bayonet Troddel--match a Prussian issued S98/05nA bayonet?

 

[Chip Minx]

It will be nearly impossible to link a troddel or faustriemen to a certain regiment. They are hardly ever marked by the way.

Issue Faustriemen are almost always ink marked on the inside of the leather strap.I have five of them and four are B.A. marked. Occasionally, they are unit marked too.

Chip

 

[Paranoid_Womb]

@ Ron, it is a bit hard too see on the small picture, but it seems like a 1st Co private purchase troddel (but the desgin still remains a bit strange, even for a pp...). If your bayonet doesn't bear any regimental marking, you won't be able to find the appropriate troddel or faustriemen for it... It wouldn't be wrong to use it, but it would be speculative.

@ Chip minx, I'd love to see of picture of those marked Faustriemen. I have a nice collection of troddeln by now, but I'm having a great deal of trouble of finding Faustriemen. If you're ever interested in trading, I have a nice spare Württemberg NCO and a Jäger troddel.

 

[Chip Minx]

I'd love to see of picture of those marked Faustriemen. I have a nice collection of troddeln by now, but I'm having a great deal of trouble of finding Faustriemen. If you're ever interested in trading, I have a nice spare Württemberg NCO and a Jäger troddel.

I will try to get that done today. The issue Faustriemen are darn hard to find. In over 40 years of collecting I've managed to get only five of them. I do have one duplicate, but I already have issue Württemberg NCO and Jäger Troddel.

Chip