Question About German Machine Gunner's Kit & Uniform 191

G

Gamburd

New member
I had some questions about the Machine Gun Crew's uniform during 1914-1915 (through the battle of Loos in September, 1915).


In a black and white photo of a WWI German Machine Gun Crew on the back of a cover of a book I own about the Battle of the Marne in 1914, the soldier on the left of the MG has his hand on his P08 holster; it looks like he has a bayonet:



It looks like there is a small pouch of some sort near the bayonet of knife's handle.

Is this an ammunition pouch for the pistol???

Where exactly would he keep his P08 ammunition??


I can see a water bottle to the which is roughly at the right corner of the photo.

It looks like there is something between the bayonet / knife and water bottle, but I can't quite make that out.

Anyone know what that is??


I have some questions about the Machine Gun Crew's uniform during 1914-1915 (through the battle of Loos in September, 1915), but I will wait to ask those later.



Just two other short questions about the MG Crew's kit.

Were the MG crewmen during 1914-1915 issued a special entrenching tool made just for MG crews??

I saw this photo of a M1901 MG crew entrenching tool on the Schiffer books' website, but I do not know if this was used during WWI.

I don't see the soldier having it in the photo I posted above, but I guess there could be a number of explanations for why it is not shown in the photo:

M1901 MG Entrenching Tool:

http://themilitaryhistoryshop.uuuq.com/mgspade.htm


Also, the MG Crews in the early war period had a large cylindrical shaped water can which they carried to help cool the MG08.

This is different from the metal box shaped water cooler used later on in WWI.

Does anyone own one of these early war MG cylinder cans or a replica, and could please post some photos of it???


Finally, if anyone owns original or replica WWI drag straps (that's the belt the MG crewman is wearing across his back) , I would like to see some photos of those too.


Thanks.
 
To answer your first question, all I see underneath the soldier's bayonet is a pickaxe (Beilpicke). It was a small portable tool issued to around 1 in 10 soldiers per company in place of the entrenching tool.

Here's a 1915 dated Beilpicke. In this case, the bayonet can be fixed to the axe's leather carrier through a loop. In the picture, it looks like the Beilpicke carrier is an older model with a single belt loop, and that the bayonet is worn beside the pickaxe as opposed to overtop it.
Hans

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Stahlhelm is correct, the little pouch you see in the photo is the part of the carrier that covers the axe on the Bielpicke, spare ammo for the P08 would have been carried in one of his pockets, in a 16 round box.
The short handled MG shovel is something I have not seen in period photos, but is reported to have been issued to some MG troops in WWI, they are not very common, I have only seen a couple in person, so I doubt that many were made.
Gus
 
Stahlhelm and Gus, thank you for the great information.



Stahlhelm, would you have a photo of the blade of the Beilpicke? It looks similar to an axe, but its purpose was for entrenchment?


Now, regarding the uniforms, I am interested in what type of uniform an Imperial German soldier would have worn at the Battle of Loos, September 26, 1915.


Are there any statistics on how many M1910 Simplified Waffenfrocks were issued in the spring and summer of 1915 between March 3rd through July 16th, 1915??


Was it mainly issued to officers? Enlisted men? or both??


Is it a difficult uniform to find nowadays, compared to the M1907/1910 (1913) Waffenfrock and M1915 Blus??:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/vereinfachte.htm

I looked at some photos from 1915 and I can see the M1907/1910 (1913) being worn on the Eastern Front in Galicia in 1915 and I have read in the Osprey military booklets that in photos one can see the M1907/1910 Waffenfrock being worn through the years until the end of WWI:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/m10feldrock.htm


The Blus was just issued a few days before the Battle of Loos, so I am guessing there was no Blus at Loos.


But it is possible the M1910 Simplified Waffenfrock was worn at Loos??

I unfortunately have not come across any photos of Imperial German soldiers at Loos in 1915.


My question is, how commonly worn was the M1910 Simplified Waffenfrock among officers and enlisted men during 1915 in the Imperial German Army???


The Imperial German Army's 117th Division was at the Battle of Loos in September, 1915:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/117th_Infantr...erman_Empire%29


1) Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich III (2. Schlesisches) Nr.11 Breslau 21.11.1808 VI Armee Korps:

(Grenadier Regiment King Frederick III (2nd Silesian) No.11 from Breslau; 7th Imperial Germany Army)


2) Infanterie-Regiment Keith (1. Ober-schlesisches) Nr.22 Gleiwitz; III Kattowitz 1.7.1813 VI Armee Korps:

(IR 22 Infanterie-Regiment Keith (1. Oberschlesisches) Nr.22 Keith Infantry Regiment (1st Upper Silesian)

3) Schlesisches 4th Infantry Regiment Nr.157

(Silesian 4th Infantry Regiment Nr. 157)


I'm almost 100% sure the 117th Division was with the 6th Reserve Corps.
 
The only pictures I have of the Beilpicke are ones where it's paired with a Austrian model, which often get confused with the German model.

The German version shown previously in this thread is on the left in these pictures. It was a multi-purpose individual tool and is often associated with the Pioniere. As far as I recall, the Austrian model was originally associated with Jaeger troops.
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As for tunics, I would suppose that a relatively large number of troops would still have worn their early war or even pre-war models at this point. That would depend on a lot of factors, including when the soldier was first issued his uniform and general wear. I can only guess at how many older (1913) models were still held in stock at the depots even in 1915 and issued to new recruits. Pre-war B.A. issued tunics are in my opinion the hardest ones to find today, especially those still in their original early war configuration.

Hans
 
I know nothing about the uniforms or gear but I have been down the unit road before. I differ a little bit about the 117th infantry division. It was one of those triangular units that was formed from reorganizing existing units, and did indeed take part in the battle of Loos. Where I think I differ is in the organization of the units. They were not all active and did not have the names and affiliations you might have thought. There were three infantry regiments in the division. All of these regiments were pulled from other divisions to form the 117th. The three regiments were the 157th infantry or JR 157, which came from the 12th Division. The second and third regiments were both reserve regiments, not the active ones that you originally listed. The second Regiment was RJR 11, which came from the 11th reserve division and was garrisoned in the towns of - Glatz, Schweidnitz, Münsterberg . The third Regiment was RJR 22, which came from the 12th reserve division and was garrisoned in Ratibor, Rybnik, Kosel . All of these were Silesian units that recruited in VI corps.


As a sideline. I do not know if you have read the book "1915 the Death of Innocence" by Lyn MacDonald. I really think it is a wonderful read and has a great deal about the battle of Loos. Written in 1995, I think it should be very easy to find a used copy. While it is very well written it suffers from the same problem as the Middleton genre of books in that it is written by the British for the British, and mostly about the British. If you're looking for details of German uniforms in the pictures section you will be sadly disappointed. The book, I think is really worthwhile, even though the 117th infantry division is not in the index!
 
Stahlhelm, thank you very much for the additional photos of the Beilpicke.

Hi Joe, thanks for telling me more about the 117th Division and about the book; I haven't read a formal history of Loos; most of the information I have read about Loos has come from British memoirs where the battle is described (Ian Hay's 'The First Hundred Thousand'; James Norman Hall's 'Kitchener's Mob'; websites, and forum discussions (Loos is often discussed over at the Great War Forum).

I also looked through parts of Phil Warner's book (mostly oral history, from British veterans) online at Google Books .

Here's a very interesting website that reprints some of the regimental diary records of the Battle of Loos from the Middlesex regiment:

http://freespace.virgin.net/howard.anderson/loos.htm



At another forum, someone showed a few photos of a Bavarian Machine Gunner; the uniform is a M1916 (I notice the Machine Gunner's Badge which were issued in 1917).


Are these blue and white checked lapels on the collar called 'Bavarian cord'??.

And all Bavarian units who had M1916 Bavarian uniforms, not just the Machine Gunners, wore them??

Would the Bavarian officers have worn these with their collar braids??



If anyone can tell me more about these, I would appreciate it.


And can anyone tell the rank of the officer displayed in the photo??:

attached, please find pics from the Bavarian 4. Machinegun Sniper Unit (MG ScharfschuetzenAbteilung Nr 4 (MGSSA 4)

Its a late Style Jacket (Bluse Mod 15) and the late style dragging strap, made from paper, (Ersatzstoff)

The Uniform is typical for middle/end of 1917 up to end of War.
Click to expand...








 
Gamburd,

Depending on where you encounter the name, the Bavarian braid is called Hoheitsabzeichen, Rautenborte, Kennzeichenborte or Aschingerborte.

This braid was universally worn on all Bavarian M16 Blusen up until the last year of the war, when evidently it was dropped all together. The officer's version of the braid was fashioned from metallic and silk thread.

I can't be sure because of the size of the photo, but the officer appears to be a Leutnant. The device is too centrally located to be a rank pip, so I am assuming it is a unit number.

Chip
 
I was just reading this post ,and hope it get's a visit again . The 117th Division at the first battle of loos was not made up the unit's listed . it was made up pf the 157th Infantry Regiment ,the 22nd Reserve infantry Regiment and the 11th Reserve Infantry Regiment ,all the units based from Silesia upper and lower. The Division was made up of these units just the spring prior ,one of e the reasdon's was to break up polish influences in the other division's they came from.
I have the intiail inof on the first days attack ,with some info provided by Pierre GG .
This was the first use of brittish gas and the first of kitchner's army . Most of the units were Scottish units for intial battle.
I am not sure that MG Kompanies were still a part of the Infantry make in 1915 .
Mark
 
HI, sorry for answering so late, but I did not spot this post.... I have maybe some answers to yours questions :
MG Spade : give a look at my website imperialhelmets.com, category MG accessories
This special tool was issued to the MG crews before the war, they were all gathered in MGA, Machine Gunner Units, attached to the 11 cavalry divisions,
during the war, MGK were set up, in each infantry regiment, they were not equipped with this special tool, in theory,
I have a couple of pics showing this tool, from an original album, the owner was in a MGA before the war, I'll certainly scan it and post it on my website when I'll start drafting the captions, so far I'm still int he photography process, if you need it before, please do not hesitate to contact me,
hope this helps
Kind regards
Steve
 
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