Question on Baden vs. Prussian vs. Saxon Spikes

[billmunny]

Three questions RE helmet spikes; are the Baden officer spikes different from Prussian spikes because of the difference in height or ?

Baden:

Baden Landwehr Infantry Officers Pickelhaube | Age of Kings Militaria

Excellent overall condition

ageofkingsmilitaria.com

Prussian:

Prussian Line Dragoon Officer Pickelhaube | Age of Kings Militaria

Uncleaned - 100% original. Rare

ageofkingsmilitaria.com

Likewise are Saxon spikes any different from Prussian spikes:

Saxon Reserve Officer for Train Abteilung 12 or 19 | Age of Kings Militaria

Near Mint Condition.

ageofkingsmilitaria.com

And finally what does it mean when there is a ring around the spike?

Saxon 1st Eisenbahn Regt. Officers Pickelhaube | Age of Kings Militaria

Great WWI era Saxon Officers helmet from a rare unit.

ageofkingsmilitaria.com

Thanks for any guidance--I'm still learning!

 

[Sandmann]

The height of the spikes was given and normally the spikes of Baden, Württemberg and Prussian helmets should be identical. But the specified height of the spikes changed with the evolution of the helmet.
In addition, some units wore a cross fitting instead of the round spikebase. First, all soldiers wore a cross fitting as spikebase, but this changed in 1867 when the round spikebase was introduced. After that, only Dragoons and some officers continued to wear a cross fitting as spikebase.

Here you can find some informations about the evolution of the pickelhauben:

German Pickelhaube Spiked Helmet Evolution Guide

www.kaisersbunker.com

Spike heights incl. spikebase:
1842 - Prussian Enlisted men or Officers: 13,0 cm - 14,0 cm

1857 - Prussian (Baden) Enlisted men or Officers: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 12,5 cm (Spike)

1860 - Prussian (Baden) Enlisted men: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 12,5 cm (Spike)
1860 - Prussian (Baden) Officer: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 12,5 cm (Spike)

1867, 1871 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg) Enlisted men: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 11,5 cm (Spike)
1867, 1871 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg ) Officer: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 11,5 cm (Spike)
1867, 1871 - Saxony Enlisted men: 8,5 cm
1867, 1871 - Saxony Officer: 8,5 cm

1887, 1891 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg) Enlisted men: 9,0 cm (Ball), 10,0 cm (Spike)
1887, 1891 - Saxony Enlisted men: 7,1 cm (Ball), 8,5 cm (Spike)

1895, 1915 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg) Enlisted men: 8,0 cm (Ball), 8,7 cm (Spike), Dragoons: 9,5 cm (Spike)
1895, 1915 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg ) Officer: 7,0 cm (Ball), 9,5 cm (Spike)
1895, 1915 - Saxony Enlisted men: 8,0 cm (Ball), 8,7 cm (Spike)
1895, 1915 - Saxony Officer: 7,0 cm (Ball) - 9,5 cm (Spike)

Here you may find some interesting dimensions around pickelhauben:
Overview of pickelhauben dimensions

The mentioned ring around the spikebase means that it is an officer helmet. Please look here for information about the differences between enlisted men and office spikes:

Characteristics of officer‘s pickelhauben

historien-kabinett.de

Or did you mean the engraved ring on the cone? This too was only worn by officers too and you can also find an explanation about it in the previously linked article.

 

[billmunny]

Thank you so much for the very helpful information--I'm very grateful!

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello,
yes, the height of the spikes is not a Land (Small State) problem. In fact, it's a problem of evolution over time:
---For the troop, the points were shortened over time for reasons of discretion and weight.
---For officers, on the other hand, the points were raised for reasons of fashion and aesthetics.

 

[Steve Nick]

The height of the spikes was given and normally the spikes of Baden, Württemberg and Prussian helmets should be identical. But the specified height of the spikes changed with the evolution of the helmet.
In addition, some units wore a cross fitting instead of the round spikebase. First, all soldiers wore a cross fitting as spikebase, but this changed in 1867 when the round spikebase was introduced. After that, only Dragoons and some officers continued to wear a cross fitting as spikebase.

Here you can find some informations about the evolution of the pickelhauben:

German Pickelhaube Spiked Helmet Evolution Guide

www.kaisersbunker.com

Spike heights incl. spikebase:
1842 - Prussian Enlisted men or Officers: 13,0 cm - 14,0 cm

1857 - Prussian (Baden) Enlisted men or Officers: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 12,5 cm (Spike)

1860 - Prussian (Baden) Enlisted men: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 12,5 cm (Spike)
1860 - Prussian (Baden) Officer: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 12,5 cm (Spike)

1867, 1871 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg) Enlisted men: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 11,5 cm (Spike)
1867, 1871 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg ) Officer: 10,5 cm (Ball) - 11,5 cm (Spike)
1867, 1871 - Saxony Enlisted men: 8,5 cm
1867, 1871 - Saxony Officer: 8,5 cm

1887, 1891 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg) Enlisted men: 9,0 cm (Ball), 10,0 cm (Spike)
1887, 1891 - Saxony Enlisted men: 7,1 cm (Ball), 8,5 cm (Spike)

1895, 1915 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg) Enlisted men: 8,0 cm (Ball), 8,7 cm (Spike), Dragoons: 9,5 cm (Spike)
1895, 1915 - Prussian (Baden, Württemberg ) Officer: 7,0 cm (Ball), 9,5 cm (Spike)
1895, 1915 - Saxony Enlisted men: 8,0 cm (Ball), 8,7 cm (Spike)
1895, 1915 - Saxony Officer: 7,0 cm (Ball) - 9,5 cm (Spike)

Here you may find some interesting dimensions around pickelhauben:
Overview of pickelhauben dimensions

The mentioned ring around the spikebase means that it is an officer helmet. Please look here for information about the differences between enlisted men and office spikes:

Characteristics of officer‘s pickelhauben

historien-kabinett.de

Or did you mean the engraved ring on the cone? This too was only worn by officers too and you can also find an explanation about it in the previously linked article.

Sandy:

Thanks for posting these regulations.

It appears that in keeping with Bavaria's inclination for "going their own way" they didn't pass any regulations on spike height?

Or, is it just a case of you haven't been able to find any such regulation?

 

[Sandmann]

Sandy:

Thanks for posting these regulations.

It appears that in keeping with Bavaria's inclination for "going their own way" they didn't pass any regulations on spike height?

Or, is it just a case of you haven't been able to find any such regulation?

You are right Steve. Unfortunately, I didn’t find regulations with dimensions for the Bavarian helmets M86 and M87. I‘ve just found a regulation for enlisted men and officers from 1904:
1896 - Bavarian Enlisted men: Foot Troops; 8,7 cm (incl. spikebase) - Mounted Troops: 8,4 cm (only spike, I think, with spikebase I guess: 10,9 cm) - Spikebase most likely identical to officers: 2,5 cm).
1896 - Bavarian Officer: 11,0 cm (Spike: 8,5 cm, spikebase: 2,5 cm)

1916 (assumption)- Bavarian Enlisted men: Foot Troops: 8,7 cm (incl. spikebase) - Ball: 8,0 cm (incl. spikebase (like Prussia)) - Mounted Troops: 9,9 cm (incl. spikebase) - Spikebase most likely identical to officers: 2,5 cm.
1916 (assumption) - Bavarian Officer: 11,0 cm or 7,0 cm (Spike: 8,5 cm, ball: 4,5 cm (like Prussia), spikebase: 2,5 cm)

 

[Sandmann]

But when I now think about it again, the helmet dimensions for the M96 for enlisted mounted troops are pretty much identical to the officer's helmet M96. Further the Bavarian helmets M87 and M91were the helmets M86, just with another chinstrap.
Therefore I suspect that the dimensions of the M86 (enlisted and officer), M87/M91 and M96 helmets for officers and mounted troops (enlisted) should be identical.
What do you all think? Opinions are welcome

 

[Steve Nick]

But when I now think about it again, the helmet dimensions for the M96 for enlisted mounted troops are pretty much identical to the officer's helmet M96. Further the Bavarian helmets M87 and M91were the helmets M86, just with another chinstrap.
Therefore I suspect that the dimensions of the M86 (enlisted and officer), M87/M91 and M96 helmets for officers and mounted troops (enlisted) should be identical.
What do you all think? Opinions are welcome

Sandy:

Thanks for your prompt reply.

It would be logical to assume that the height specified for the M87/M91 helmets would be the same as M96 helmets as there was no change to the height of the helmet shell which would be the only other element of the helmets' construction that would impact the overall height.