Regimental marking on Dreyse M1841

S

Scratch

Member
Hello one and all! My first post on this forum. I’m a collector, mainly of British WW1 uniforms and equipment but I also have an interest in the mid C19 European wars, especially those of 1866 and 1870.

I wonder if anyone can identify the regimental marking on my Dreyse M1841? It is SMR, 5C, 51. I know what 5C and 51 are, it’s just SMR I’m stuck on.

Thanks,

S. :)
 
Surely somebody must know the answer to this! I am starting to think that if nobody here does, I might never find out.

I don't have the Noll book on Imperial abbreviations. I agree with supporting researchers by buying their books and regularly do so in my own field, but this is very much a sideline and I would rather not have to buy a book solely for one abbreviation.

Even if someone could confirm that SMR isn't in it, that would be a help.

Hello? :???:
 
Neither Noll nor Goertz are of any help. As the Dreise is a pre-imperial weapon the search is far more difficult. Does the Dreyse have Prussian acceptance marks? Have you included all the punctuation?
 
Geo

Thanks - yes of course, it hadn't occurred to me that being pre-Imperial would put it outside the scope of that book. There are what I assume to be Prussian acceptance marks, ie. a crown over FW on one side, also a couple of tiny Prussian eagles, and on the other side a number of different letters surmounted by a crown, including W, B, E, H? and D? The date of manufacture is 1862. I have included all the punctuation.

It's in quite good order but I'd say has seen a fair bit of use. It would be nice to pin it down to a unit with a good service record, but then this model is so rare that I count myself lucky to have one at all.

Best wishes,

S.
 
Ok, I've had a Sam Adams or two and I'll dive in here. How about See (Sea) Matrose Regiment?

I had a 1860 Fusilier Gewher (another noodle gun) which was Navy marked. Sold that one to buy the one marked to the Garde Fusilier Regiment that now sits in the rack.

Just a beer induced guess...hic :occasion5:

Larmo
 
Welcome to the forum Scratch. Unfortunately, I can not be of help. However, we have a great deal of expertise here so hang in there. I would be very surprised if some member can not provide you with the requested information.
 
All suggestions very welcome! Was there a See Matrosen Regiment? I googled it and found nothing, but am doubtful because "See Matrosen" seems to be a tautology, like "Sea Sailor Regiment". I only know of the Seebataillon, but don't know whether they would have used the M1841 or the M1860, as yours seems to indicate. I would think a shorter rifle would be more handy on board ship.

Keep 'em coming!

Cheers,

S.

Add: I've looked again, without "See", and found that there were various Matrosen Regiments, ie sailors not marines. Everything I can find on them seems to be WW1 so am still not sure if they existed in the 1860s.
 
Howdy Scratch. This morning I opened up my copy of Germanys Army & Navy published in 1900 by the Werner Company of Akron Ohio. It's a true tome of a book with wonderful color prints and published in both German & English. On page 138, in the section detailing the history of the navy, it states "At Stettin a naval depot, and at Dantzic (sic)a navy yard were established; while a naval corps, a marine corps (Matrosen und See-Soldaten Corps ) and a division of engineers were created in 1852".

If my memory serves I remember reading "somewhere" about floating batteries manned by Naval troops during the siege of Paris in 1870-1871. I didn't have that much time to dig that one out this morning, but I will keep looking.

My 1860 Fusilier Gewehr was marked S.B.XXX (I don't remember the company or weapon number).

Like I said, just a guess...:dontknow:

Larry
 
I doubt that the unit designation has any naval connection. I do not know what sort of naval organization Prussia had prior to 1871 but later Kaiserliches Marine markings as hinted at above would have been to Matrosen Division (M.D.) and See Batallion (S.B.).

It is possible that your rifle is unit marked using a pre 1871 honor designation for the regiment. Many German regiments carried an honor title associated with the honorary colonel of the Regiment such as Czar Alexander of Russland, Queen Olga of Bezirkistan, etc. If you can find a pre empire listing of Prussian regiments with their honorary colonels you might hit paydirt. Depending upon how many regiments honored King Wilhelm as honorary colonel, it might be Seine Majistaets Regiment, etc.
 
Queen Olga of Bezirkistan
Click to expand...
Ya know, I think I went to the Prom with her..... :queen:

Seriously though, I do like the Seine Majistaets Regiment sugestion. However I do not believe it to be an abreviation for an honorific title. From what I have observed unit marks tend to be rather cryptic and to the point. In some cases you simply would run out of room to place the markings of Queen Olga of Bezirkistan's Highland Light Infantry Nr.1 on the butt plate of a rifle.

The reason I suggested a naval use, was while going through Jeff Noll's book on unit markings (pls note, the only source on the subject in my library) I noticed that of the 15 entries that begin with the letter S, five of them have naval affiliations. The Prussian navy did establish a corps of See-Soldaten in 1852, presumabley they were armed with firearms and likely property marked them. I still have in my possesion an 1860 Fusilier bayonet scabbard marked S.B.5.83, and have seen other SB marked bayonets offered for sale on the net, in addition to the Fusiler Gewehr I mentioned.

In my previous post I mentioned the book, Deutschlands Heere & Flotte, the book does go into detail regarding the history and orginization of the navy prior to 1871, detailing the naval engagements prior to 1871, and in some instances the names of opposing ship's captains. In addition, ships names, number and their type, personnel strength, establishments of schools and and corps with dates are noted. In my opinion it is a very good information source, and the fact that it has 40 full color lithographs doesn't hurt either. Amazingly, sound examples of this 100 year old book can still be had for no money ($100) if one looks. :read2:

As to the pre 1871 unit markings, I took a quick look at the unit marked firearms and edge weapons in my collection. Most have easily deciphered unit marks; GFR 4 179, 19 D 4.15 and so on, but I did find the following interesting markings on an all matching, 1833 dated, Potsdam Musket, unit marked on the butt plate LEIB.R.2C.250. I guess that's an honorific of sorts, but it leaves us hanging there as well, which LEIB regiment, which SMR regiment? One would suppose there would be a number following the letter designation to denote a particular unit. Unless, IT was the only LEIB-SMR regiment in the Bezirkistan order of battle. If that's the case, then Scratch, the devil is in the details, as other fiefdoms employed the Zundnadelgewehr in addition to Prussia.

I love the unit markings on German weapons, it really gives us a solid base for research into the history of their use. Sorry I couldn't be of more help in figuring this guy out. ](*,)

Larry
 
Guys

I'd also expect simple regimental markings such as IR 47, etc for Prussia. There is plainly a Prussian eagle (twice) on the side of the action. If it is not naval but some sort of honorary title, maybe it relates to a regiment raised from a distinct region that was part of Prussia in 1862. My history is vague on this, but the ones that spring to mind (with a bit of Wiki-prompting) are Silesia, Schleswig and Saxe-Lauenburg.

On the subject of bayonets, a question: did the M41 bayonet come without a scabbard? All I've ever seen on the belt in photos is the sidearm, with the bayonet on the rifle. Must have been awkward on the march. I am currently negotiating for a bayonet (no scabbard). They seem to be as rare as the gun.

The Dreyse has a strange beauty about it, and since getting this one, to go with my M60 pickelhaube, I am beginning to understand the fascination some people have with this weapon. Next stop has to be a Chassepot!
 
Hi Wyliecoyote

I will have to take some photos of it and get a Flickr or Photobucket account, which I think I need to post pics on here. That plus the question of resizing photos has put me off, but I will make the effort eventually!

Flasheart posted some pics of his M41 on this forum 2 years ago - a search for M1841 should find them. Mine is similar to his but was made 8 years later, and already has some features of the M62 around the breech. It is however clearly a complete original M41. They seem to have improved bits of the design before making the changeover to the shorter M62. I believe production of the M41 stopped in 1865.

Regards,

S.
 
I consulted Jeff Noll and a collector friend in Germany, both feel that the unit marking is to an Infantry Regiment and that the "SM" is probably a regimental honor title.
 
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