Relic M1915 shoulder straps

S

simon505

New member
I've recently bought these two shoulder straps (very cheaply, I quickly add before you see their condition and recommend I be sectioned for buying anything so bad). They're not technically relic by my definition (as they've not been dug up in France or Belgium) but were more likely liberated by a doughboy and forgotten about in an attic.

I'm fairly sure one is for the 170 IR but I'm not sure about the other one. They are the m1915 sew on type.

The other has an L cypher (bavarian?) and a crown above it. Have heard it may be for the 47 IR but to be honest I've no idea.

See link.

http://www.advanceguardmilitaria.com/ItemDetail.aspx?ReturnPage=ItemList.aspx&InventoryID=V31704&WebCategoryID=5

Would appreciate any info.

Simon
 
I've noticed that the link doesn't automatically open to the pictures. If you would like to see the pics select 'BROWSE CATALOG AS A GUEST' scroll to the bottom of the terms page and select I accept terms (they bind you to nothing by doing this) and browse the Imperial German catalog for Relic shoulder straps.

Cheers

Simon
 
Advanced gaurd always has an interesting site to send you if you decline their terms.
Gus
 
The RPS website - that's hilarious! I've never declined their terms so I didn't know what you got. Brilliant.

Simon
 
Hey Simon,
I culd not find your straps in the new catalogue, were they from a former list? Jeff changes the site you get sent to every now and then, for a while, it was Dr Laura's web site.
Gus
 
Simon,

Yes, that strap is from the 47.IR. It is one of the more common cyphered straps to be found. Here's my example.
Chip

 
Cheers guys,

Do you know what state the 47th IR came from? Pre war examples of this strap are rare aren't they?

Simon
 
simon505 said:
Do you know what state the 47th IR came from? Pre war examples of this strap are rare aren't they?
Click to expand...

Chip and I have had discussions on the legendary IR47 cyphered strap. I only need nine more Dunkelblau cyphered infantry to have all of them, if I include IR47. I don't ever expect to find an IR47 as I do not know of a single original example. The one on display in Rastatt may be a replica to fill the gap. I have seen a book dated 1911 on the history of IR47 and that strap cypher was on the cover, so logically you would think there was straps made, but I have never seen one.

Honestly, now that I have found an equally difficult to find numbered IR47 to fill that hole, I am not ever looking for the cyphered version.

A list of all units with details of their uniforms, helmets, and garrisons etc is here. Go to the bottom and click on the link for Infantry Regiments >> http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/
 
Tony, of course, is right. Any example of the 47th is quite scarce. I collected prewar straps for over forty years and never saw either a cyphered or a numbered example. In general, prewar straps from the regiments that were garrisoned in the east are much harder to find. Unlike the wartime regiments that were sent back and forth from east front to west front and back again, the prewar units stayed in their garrison towns for the most part. Then, when the resurgence of interest in German militaria started in the 1960s, these towns were behind the Iron Curtain. One would think that today we would be seeing a few more examples surface, but that just has not been the case.

The 47th was garrisoned in Posen and Schrimm in the Prussian (Niederschlesisches) V.A.K.

Chip
 
Cheers guys, its hard to believe that something like a shoulder strap could just go totally off the radar like that.

But the wartime M15 straps for the 47th IR are nothing special then?

all the best,

Simon
 
Does anyone know anything about the role of the 47th IR in the war? A brief summary of any facts would be grand.

Simon
 
Simon,

I would say that the M1915 version of the 47th IR cyphered strap is relatively common, at least here in the U.S.. The 1907-10 Feldgrau version is not seen, however, so I would rate it as scarce. I would suggest you checking out "History of 251 German Divisions in the World War.." for a chronology of the 47th, which spent the entire war with the 10th Division. It was up against American troops on more than one occasion, giving up 400 prisoners and many more casualties in the battle of the Marne in the summer of 1918.

Chip
 
cheers Chip. I'm buying this one from the US so it's quite possible that this was liberated by a doughboy at the Marne - and then forgotten. about.

Just a few final questions - Why do some M15 (or rather most) shoulder boards have white piping around the edge and some don't. Does the white piping denote anything?

Does the L on the 47th Cypher mean anything? How come they didn't get the chain stitched numbers like most IR's?

All the best,

Simon
 
Simon,
The piping colour denotes spacific units, for infantry, you can have around a half a dozen different colours. The un piped straps are from later in the war, reducing cost and materials to produce the uniforms. It is possible that your straps came from Belgium, Jeff buys a lot of the items he offers im his catalogue in Europe.
Best wishes
Gus
 
Simon,
Tony just corrected me, the straps without piping were introduced for the Vereinfachte uniforms in 1915, before the M1915 Bluse and straps. The piped M1915 straps were the last straps produced.

See here>> http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/vereinfachte.htm


I knew better than to make a statement with out double checking, we all need to be careful on how we pass on our "knowledge" as mistakes like mine can be picked up and run with. The saveings on material and labor are still the reason, the Vereinfachte uniforms were symplifyed uniforms, and the real shortages in equipment and uniforms was in early 1915 when the army was being enlarged.
Gus
 
No worries, we can't always be right. I know nothing about Uniforms really so any info is very welcome.

What do you think of the 170 strap - I'm right to think that it was just an IR or a RIR.

Cheers,

Si
 
Hey Simon,
I am not an expert on straps, but the piping colours change from the M07/10 to the M15 straps. I am sure some one can tell you for sure, but I cannot.
Best wishes
Gus
 
With the September 1915 regulations, the Germans established Waffenfarbe (branch colors) for the first time. Prior to this, the piping colors on Feldgrau uniforms denoted various things. For infantry, the piping color was determined, for the most part, by the army corps. Other branches had rules for their colors too, but some units, most notably, those of the cavalry got their pipings from traditional uniform colors.

In 1915 many changes were made when a more simplified and organized means of indentification was adopted. In general, the infantry wore white piping as their Waffenfarb. There were some exceptions, with units retaining their traditional colors as piping (less than 20 colored pipings remained from the hundreds of regiments in the wartime army).

Chip
 
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Unlike most of you I don't really have a specialist subject within German ww1 militaria (arguably trench knives) so myself and collectors like me rely on your knowledge and wisdom to keep us on the straight and narrow path of collecting.

All the best,

Simon

RULE BRITANNIA!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top