Saxon 107th Reserve Regiment. Named to Frenzel

chinstrap

Active member
This is a well-marked and named helmet to the Saxon 107th Reserve Regiment. It came with paperwork to Sanitats Unteroffizier Otto Arthur Frenzel 107R.

Markings on the left visor are 1904 106R 107 RR 13. On the right side visor is written what, with the benefit of the paperwork, I read as San Untoffiz Frenzel II 107. The size 56 is also stamped on this section. The numeral '6' or '9' is stamped in the interior strengthening disc below the spike base. Does anybody know what this signifies? There is also a stamp above the wappen fixing holes which appears to say ACTION GES. THIELE. I presume this is the manufacturer?

I have attached scans of the four copy documents I have. Three of these are Red Cross documents concerning his repatriation in February 1917. The fact that he was repatriated suggests to me that he was wounded but, as I understand it, these documents do not specifically say that he was wounded at the time of his capture on 15 July 1916 . I therefore wonder if there was a practice of exchanging medical personnel, as the document of 1916, listing a ‘transport sanitaires allemands’ , suggests to me that they might have been viewed and treated differently from others. I thought the places listed after each man's name might be prison camps with medical facilities, where they may have been used to care for wounded and sick German prisoners. However, the fact that the repatriation list includes men from a range of units suggests he was indeed simply wounded. I cannot read what I think is the place of capture ending in 318 on his Red Cross form, and do not understand the significance of the manuscript comments in French at the bottom of that form, although I understand the words.

All comments, ideas, information welcome.

Patrick
P1080767 (2).JPG

P1080761 (2).JPGP1080762 (2).JPGP1080768 (2).JPGP1080770.JPGFrenzel 1 (2).jpgFrenzel 2 (2).jpgFrenzel 3 (3).jpgFrenzel 4 (2).jpg
 
Wonderful "Konvolut", Patrick. Amazing how diverse destinations of wounded German prisoners were. Many places in Southern France, even Belle-Ile, a (wonderful, highly recommended for a visit) island off the coast of Southern Brittany. I knew that hotels in Biarritz had hosted wounded Germans in WW1. I wonder why they were not kept closer to the front.
 
Wonderful "Konvolut", Patrick. Amazing how diverse destinations of wounded German prisoners were. Many places in Southern France, even Belle-Ile, a (wonderful, highly recommended for a visit) island off the coast of Southern Brittany. I knew that hotels in Biarritz had hosted wounded Germans in WW1. I wonder why they were not kept closer to the front.
Thanks Bruno,

Hope the heat isn’t too much for you over there. No sign of sun here until Friday. I wouldn’t hurry back, if I were you, given quarantine and the weather.

Any thoughts on the significance of the ‘transport’ list?

Patrick
 
Patrick,
You have a very smart-looking helmet. It is fantastic that you have the veteran's name and information about his time in World War One. Thanks for posting.
John
 
Patrick.

It was fairly common practice at least up until mid 1915 to exchange medical personnel.

I'm finishing up my history of the 5th Battalion (Western Cavalry) C.E.F. and one of the anecdotes I used was that of the 5th's Medical Officer who was captured during the gas attack at 2nd Ypres April 24th 1915. He spent some time in Germany but was exchanged. His account ends with his exchange on June 24, 1915:

"The following day, about forty-six of us, Medical Officers and three Chaplains, with about 240 R.A.M.C. ambulance personnel and some fifty permanently unfit combatants, were taken by way of Antwerp to Holland. On arrival at Flushing we were handed over to the Dutch Red Cross, and placed on board a steamer which left the next morning for England."

I expect a similar number of German Medical staff would have been moving in the opposite direction.
 
Patrick.

It was fairly common practice at least up until mid 1915 to exchange medical personnel.

I'm finishing up my history of the 5th Battalion (Western Cavalry) C.E.F. and one of the anecdotes I used was that of the 5th's Medical Officer who was captured during the gas attack at 2nd Ypres April 24th 1915. He spent some time in Germany but was exchanged. His account ends with his exchange on June 24, 1915:

"The following day, about forty-six of us, Medical Officers and three Chaplains, with about 240 R.A.M.C. ambulance personnel and some fifty permanently unfit combatants, were taken by way of Antwerp to Holland. On arrival at Flushing we were handed over to the Dutch Red Cross, and placed on board a steamer which left the next morning for England."

I expect a similar number of German Medical staff would have been moving in the opposite direction.
Steve,

Thanks, that’s great information, and suggests my theory about German medical staff repatriation may be correct. Do you know if the Canadian medical staff were used to look after Canadian prisoners of war in camps and hospitals? If so, this would give some support to my idea about German medical staff looking after German prisoners. It seems an entirely sensible way of making the best use of resources, avoiding pulling the captor country’s medical staff away from caring for their own troops.

Patrick
 
Patrick:

I had to go back to the source document, as I had to shorten Capt. Hart's lengthy article for the book.

He said that he was taken to and spent time at two German prisoner camps. I suppose he would have provided care to other Allied officers if required but he was not providing care to any Allied enlisted ranks. I have the impression he wasn't used in any medical capacity while a POW.
He was only held captive for two months before being exchanged.

Steve
 
Steve, thanks for taking the time and trouble to delve deeper. I noticed the very short time he was held as a POW. I wonder how typical that was in these cases.

Patrick
 
Sanitäts-unteroffizier Arthur FRENZEL, 2/RJR107, has first been missed September 1915:


This is a publication of the Verlust Listen of the 14.10.15.

Another later publication of the 25.11.15 says he is now in French captivity:


In Septembre 1915, the RJR107 was there:

1915

  • 08.01.1915 - 13.01.1915: Schlacht bei Perthes les Hurlus und Beauséjour (2. Schlacht bei Perthes)
  • 14.01.1915 - 31.01.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne
  • 01.02.1915 - 05.02.1915: Schlacht bei Perthes les Hurlus und Massiges
  • 06.02.1915 - 15.02.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne
  • 16.02.1915 - 19.02.1915: Schlacht bei Perthes les Hurlus und Beauséjour (4. Schlacht bei Perthes)
  • 21.02.1915 - 20.03.1915: Winterschlacht in der Champagne
  • 21.03.1915 - 21.09.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne
  • 22.09.1915 - 03.11.1915: Herbstschlacht in der Champagne 1915
  • 04.11.1915 - 31.12.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne

The Red Cross scan of Otto Arthur FRENZEL from Adorf (born 7.4.94) is not refering to this same guy. This other FRENZEL was in the 7/RJR107 and has the rank of an EM and not Unteroffizier. One find him in the Verlust Listen too:

Lightly wounded:


And then reported as ever missed:


Philippe
;)
 
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Steve, thanks for taking the time and trouble to delve deeper. I noticed the very short time he was held as a POW. I wonder how typical that was in these cases.
It would be interesting o look into this. I suspect that as the war dragged on prisoner exchanges were less common. I have no basis for thinking that beyond a sense that the pre-war standards of civility and decency declined as the situation became nastier.
 
Sanitäts-unteroffizier Arthur FRENZEL, 2/RJR107, has first been missed September 1915:


This is a publication of the Verlust Listen of the 14.10.15.

Another later publication of the 25.11.15 says he is now in French captivity:


In Septembre 1915, the RJR107 was there:

1915

  • 08.01.1915 - 13.01.1915: Schlacht bei Perthes les Hurlus und Beauséjour (2. Schlacht bei Perthes)
  • 14.01.1915 - 31.01.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne
  • 01.02.1915 - 05.02.1915: Schlacht bei Perthes les Hurlus und Massiges
  • 06.02.1915 - 15.02.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne
  • 16.02.1915 - 19.02.1915: Schlacht bei Perthes les Hurlus und Beauséjour (4. Schlacht bei Perthes)
  • 21.02.1915 - 20.03.1915: Winterschlacht in der Champagne
  • 21.03.1915 - 21.09.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne
  • 22.09.1915 - 03.11.1915: Herbstschlacht in der Champagne 1915
  • 04.11.1915 - 31.12.1915: Stellungskämpfe in der Champagne

The Red Cross scan of Otto Arthur FRENZEL from Adorf (born 7.4.94) is not refering to this same guy. This other FRENZEL was in the 7/RJR107 and has the rank of an EM and not Unteroffizier. One find him in the Verlust Listen too:

Lightly wounded:


And then reported as ever missed:


Philippe
;)
Philippe,

Thank you very much for your research. The papers came with the helmet and I completely missed the fact that the Frenzel in the Red Cross documents is clearly shown as an infantry man. So much for my medical staff repatriation theory! Pretty dumb on my part! Still, that's the benefit of a forum like this.

Do you have any thoughts about the significance of the document headed 'Transport Sanitaires Allemands'?

Patrick
 
Do you have any thoughts about the significance of the document headed 'Transport Sanitaires Allemands'?
Yes Patrick, it means "german medical transports". As you can see on this list, there are only ambulance men on this list. So it seems that those Sanitäts Soldaten were sorted out and not mixed with other common german prisoners.
Philippe
;)
 
Thanks, Philippe,

Yes, I realised they were all medical personnel. What I’m really trying to discover is exactly why they were grouped together this way. As I mentioned above, I wondered if captured medical staff were used to care for German POW’s . It looks from this document as though they have been brought together by the French from a variety of locations, possibly where they looked after German prisoners, or were simply prisoners themselves. I wonder if this was for repatriation purposes as per discussion with Steve above? I can’t think why else this would be done.

I do understand that the Frenzel whose repatriation record I have was an infantryman, not a medical man, so I am really focusing on what medical man Frenzel and the others on the transport list were involved in. I may never know but I would really like to find out!

How do you get access to the German records you consult? You were able to give me some really good information a while ago about the soldier who wore another of my Saxon helmets.

Patrick
 
Good evening Patrick,
Handsome !! (y) An 1895 Saxon model of the 106R upgraded to the 107RJR (Reserve).
About the manufacturer, yes, Thiele was a Saxon supplier. Saxon stars often have the maker's initial on the back. When it is 0 it is 0sang, when it is Thiele it should be a T.
cordially
 

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Good evening Patrick,
Handsome !! (y) An 1895 Saxon model of the 106R upgraded to the 107RJR (Reserve).
About the manufacturer, yes, Thiele was a Saxon supplier. Saxon stars often have the maker's initial on the back. When it is 0 it is 0sang, when it is Thiele it should be a T.
cordially
Thanks Clovis,

I will have a look at the back of the star. Any idea what the 9 or 6 stamped into the strengthening disc means.

Patrick
 
Sorry but I don't know the meaning of the number in the "Teller"
😉
 

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This Pickelhaube has a new home!

Just over a month ago I had zero pickelhaubes, then four weeks ago one appeared and today a second one.

They seem to be like Iron Crosses many years ago there was one and then all by itself another appeared, after that there was no stopping them they multiplied at an ever increasing rate.
Pickelhaubes seem to posess this ability to multiply, the theory almost seems viable until you consider the Pour Le Merite after over 10 years, there is still only one!.
 
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