Saxon EM M95

chinstrap

Member
This is the third very nice EM 95 I bought recently from the same person who sold me the Prussian EM M95 I posted a couple of weeks ago

Saxon EM M95. Good condition, no extra holes, but chinstrap is repro -makes two I need now! the Saxon kokarde is serrated, and I know there's been lots of debate about these on the forum. It looks original and it is punched from the inside, which Brian identifies as being the mark of an original. I might be happier with an original smooth edge one-comments?

The maker's name is stamped on the inside trim of the front visor- H Muller & Cie Offenbach.

The rear visor is stamped within an inch of its life and also has the soldier's name. Can anyone decipher the script from the photos? The name is also in the crown, but even more difficult to read. I understand the unit stamp but there are number which mean nothing to me -can somebody interpret, please? I have tried to take good photos, but , to help, reading from left to right, we appear to have '97', soldier's name, below the name some writing starting with '5. but then unreadable, unit stamp '103R',(which I know is 4th Royal Saxons), then what I think is the date '1899', but might also be 'M.99'. On the right hand side of the spine is '23' or '2.3', then '5.K', followed on the extreme right by what might be '08' and another digit. Any help gratefully received!

Patrick

















 

911car

Well-known member
Very nice one, Patrick.
The regiment could also be 102R (this is what I read at first).
Below is M95. This mark is specific to saxon helmets. M stands for magasin. And the date is when the helmet was first received.
You should find a genuine saxon cockade. It deserves it!
 

911car

Well-known member
Perhaps I was wrong about the cockade. It looks new. A repainted original? Or did you use a flash light?
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
Great helmet....never seen vertical stampings on a rear visor before. To me the Reichs kokarde has been repainted, the white ring is wavy, due to hand painting.
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Should the helmet not have the special
Saxon style Kokards ?
I guess they all did not use the Saxon pattern ?

Steve
 

SkipperJohn

Well-known member
Chinstrap,
Read this thread before you do anything. I have found Saxon Kokarden to be the most confusing of them all.

http://pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John :)
 

chinstrap

Member
John,

Thanks. This is what I was referring to when I mentioned the debates there had been on the forum. I had read it and was still uncertain about the status of the serrated kokarde , hence asking for opinions.

Festwagner, thanks for the identification of the name . Are those particularly Saxon surnames?

Bruno, thanks for the comments on the marks. It may well be 102R, very difficult to tell.

I will definitely be looking for an original smooth edge Saxon kokarde. Anybody got one?

Thanks to everybody for your comments.

Patrick
 

J.LeBrasseur

Administrator
here is the Saxon, IMO a good one.

James

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322438125182?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 

chinstrap

Member
Hi James,

Thanks very much. I had seen this, but I was really looking for a smooth edge one.

May still have a go for this one , though, as it looks better than my serrated one.

Patrick
 

argonne

Well-known member
festwagner said:
Nice with original vertical marks.
The nam of the soldier should be Apitz or Apitzsch

=D> =D> =D>

I think you nailed it, Francois. Wearer was Unteroffizier Otto APITZ from the 5 Company of the JR102, K.I.A in Condé on the 15.10.14.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/650453" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One can clearly see the abreviation for the rank "Unteroffizier" behind the hand written name: "Uffz."

Further, to my humble opinion, the "M" on such early saxon helmets does not mean "Magasin" but "Modifiziert" (modified). It means that this helmet certainly was a M91 production (between 1891 and 1895). It saw its first "real" duty in the R102 in the year 1897 (first date on the left side). It was then modified 1899 trough addition of a ventilated rear spine, addition of brass grommets around the holes behind the Wappen and addition of a new M95 Wappen with loops instead of the old one wich was with screws . One can see that this helmet was first a M91 by looking closely to the center of side posts on this exemplar, that are typical for early M91 helmets. They are much more domed in the middle than the side posts that have been produced between 1895 and 1915 :wink: Look closely to all of your helmets and compare :wink:

The other stamps are meaning 2B (second bataillon with companies 5 to 8 ) and 5K (companie N°5) which is perfectly matching with the handwriting of Unteroffizzier Otto APITZ :bravo:

The last stamp at the right side might be the size of helmet. I am reading 58.

Both cockades are wrong on this helmet. The real question is if such saxon cokades have really existed...If yes, certainly not on a pre-war helmet, maybe on late Ersatz productions :-k However, it should not be difficult to find good ones and a good chinstrap too. Only just a bit pricy :eek:

A very good named helmet with story of wearer, those I especially appreciate =D> =D>

Philippe
:wink:
 

argonne

Well-known member
Maybe it helps better with some picts :wink:

A typical side post produced after 1895, small dome in the middle:



A early side post, produced between 1891 and 1895, big dome:



Philippe
:wink:
 

chinstrap

Member
Philippe,

Thank you very much for your amazing research, which links the soldier you identify and the helmet so definitively, and also for your analysis of the evolution of the helmet. Wonderful!

I certainly want to get the proper cockades for this helmet and an original chinstrap. If l understand correctly what Tony says in Kaiser's Bunker, Unteroffiziers wore Mannschaften cockades, unless it was an Unteroffizier mit Portepee? Your comments confirm that I should be looking for a smooth edge cockade.

Patrick
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
Philippe: Some new information on M91 side posts for me, excellent. Would you please post those pictures and information on our M91 post thread? I had noticed differences, but I just thought this was due to different manufacturing by different makers.
 

poniatowski

Well-known member
b.loree said:
Philippe: Some new information on M91 side posts for me, excellent. Would you please post those pictures and information on our M91 post thread? I had noticed differences, but I just thought this was due to different manufacturing by different makers.


Ditto. Now I'll have to look at side posts on my helmets. Always something new to do! :)

:D Ron
 
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