Scroll Helmet Article

Now that is one heck of a rare picture. The type of the front plate seems to be different than on the pictured helmet - smaller curve radius and no visible scroll. The absence of the neck flap seems OK to me, they would get lost over time.

There is a lot of confusion about that train unit, the 4th company of Württemb. Train-Bataillon Nr.13 was founded in October 1913 and evidently stuck to the mountain units somehow.
 
Joe, did you wind up winning the photo on eBay.de? :bravo: =D>

It's an incredible image!!!

I was watching it, and wondered who ended up getting it.

All the Best,

Alan
 
Thanks Alan,

Expensive little bugger–I do not think there are many outside of this forum that would appreciate the rarity. Most people would just look at the Edelweiss.

Robert,

You are correct this is not a variant with the scroll. But as I see no number and it was postmarked in Würrtemberg it seems like a logical fit. I have asked several people for help in translating the back of the card as I cannot decipher it.

You seem to have more information than I do on the 4th company TB 13. Can you expand on that a little bit? Based on the timing is this still TB 13? Yes I am confused! But think where we were several years ago on this subject! Thank everybody for all their help.


ps1658a by joerookery, on Flickr
 
Hey Joe,
This is a difficult one, and I have not managed the place it was written, but the text is pretty much standard. Written on the 20th of October 1916
Liebe Hilda
Sende ?ihr? ?das?
letzen Grüße von
mein Ausmarsch
dein (abbreviations that I can not make out) Rudolf
and now my eyes have gone crossed and I can not see anything, thank you very much

Best
Gus
 
What gets me is the strange combination. The Edelweiß would indicate that he was a participant in the mountain war. I cannot imagine that it was issued that way, perhaps a personal souvenir after he was reassigned to another unit? The neckflap quite surely means he was heading for the Balkans when the picture was taken.

Leutkirch where the card was stamped was the location of the 2. and 3. company of the Ersatz-Bataillon of the Württemberg mountain regiment. I never did figure out how the Württemb. Tragtier-Züge (carriage animal units) where assigned; these were active in Serbia and Macedonia. Also I remember reading about the 4th company of the Train Batl. being there. Regrettably there is little info about train units. I will ask in a German forum, maybe somebody has more infos about them.

I will try at the translation later together with my mother, although the writing is really difficult.
 
No luck at translating, Gustaf already found about everything I could read.

However, I was informed that the white rim of the shoulder flap indicates a Bavarian unit. Evidently the Bavarian mountain units wore infantry uniforms which had this detail. The Bavarian geb. MG-Abt. 248 was assigned to the Alpencorps until March 1916. The other Geb. MG-Abtl. used the Prussian grey-green uniforms and had numbers on their shoulder flaps. This also includes the Württemberian Abtl. 250 - I have a death card, the picture is bad but the number on the shoulder flap is visible.

I still would like to find out more about the Württembergian train and carriage units though. If anybody visits the Pompelle museum, could you ask them about their source? :D
 
I don't know Robert. It sure would be nice if there was something to decipher on the back. I would not even agree that they shoulder flap rim is certainly white. could be. I cannot even see the top of the shoulder strap. Is there a number? I don't know. It almost looks like there is a small cockade. is what you are saying that all Bavarian MGMA had no shoulder strap number? Therefore it could be nothing but Bavarian? I also would like to learn more about these transport units and would love to have some source information. Museum labels are at best only a clue. What is your source think this guy is? Some sort of replacement to a Bavarian unit? Which one? Why is the scroll blank? Were these transport units ever part of the Alpenkorps? what do you think the best source material is?
 
Hey Joe,
I can not see that there can be anything of importance on the back. I think he writes vor mein Ausmarsch thought rather than von. The more I look at the last two lines, the less I get from them.
Best
Gsu
 
Joe,
from what I was told all Bavarian Geb-MG.Abtl. carried the uniforms of the infantry. Maybe I can find out the source of that, and whether it maybe only concerns the later batch of units with numbers below 210.

The should flap seems to be the only hard evidence at the moment. All other GMGA pictures show numbers on the shoulder flaps, without rim. The train units had blue shoulder flaps from what I read. So this is just ONE possibility - a Bavarian member of Geb-MG.Abt.248 from the near border area in Württemberg, who participated in the alpine war (perhaps in another unit) and received the Edelweiß.
Museum labels are at best only a clue.
Click to expand...
That is true. I To me it looks like the label on the picture tells something about a "division de montagne" - a "mountain division" (which did not exist).

Why is the scroll blank? One idea - it must have been a logistical nightmare to provide so many company-sized units with specialized helmets of their own. So why not produce them blank and stamp them close to the war theater when needed, e.g. in the depot in Serbia. Any replacements would march out with blank helmets and get them stamped when they reached their depot. As with most theories, if it sounds likely then it probably isn't true..

It seems that the train and carriage units receive little attention in most literature. Difficult to track them, I would really like to find out more. One picture and so many questions!
 
All of us are just flopping around :) :) :)
Why is the scroll blank? One idea - it must have been a logistical nightmare to provide so many company-sized units with specialized helmets of their own. So why not produce them blank and stamp them close to the war theater when needed, e.g. in the depot in Serbia. Any replacements would march out with blank helmets and get them stamped when they reached their depot. As with most theories, if it sounds likely then it probably isn't true..
Click to expand...

It is a logical idea but it does not hold with some other recruit pictures we have. This is an ausmarche photo yes? So the question becomes did he receive the Edelweiß? Or did he just wear it as one of the flowers?

It seems that the train and carriage units receive little attention in most literature. Difficult to track them, I would really like to find out more. One picture and so many questions!
Click to expand...

Amen brother! :!:
 
some cases to the Western front with those helmets. This postcard from the collection of Hans Dieter Zimmer was written in Vogesen 12.1.16. That is in Alsace-Lorraine. According to a translation kindly provided by Immanuel:

Feldpost
An Familie Friedrich Walter

Saarbücken 6

Saargmünderstr. 64

Vogesen 12.1.16

Will Euch meine Lieben auch mal wieder eine Kriegserinnerung geben in unserer alten Uniform. Wir bekommen aber jedenfalls bald wieder andere. Die Pfeife von Heinrich freut mich täglich mehr und raucht sich sehr gut. Hoffe auch wenn das große Paket Tabak alle ist wird auch der Krieg zu Ende sein. Ich grüße Euch alle herzlich Euer Wilhelm.

I just want to send you another warmemory in our old uniform. Soon we are going to get some others. The pipe from Heinrich pleases me more and more from day to day and it smokes very well. I hope that the war is over when I finished the big pack of tabacco. Best regards to you all from your Wilhelm

An analysis of this was produced by Xiphophilos:
Wilhelm, the author of the postcard, says that he and his friend are depicted in their old uniform, and he expects that they'll soon get different uniforms. So I wonder if this uniform was originally distributed to the writer's unit when they were in a place like Macedonia, even though they were at the time the postcard was written in the Vosges Mountains and still wearing the same uniform.

This unit was part of the great 12th Landwehr division which had some horrible experiences and losses at the Hartmannswillerkopf in late December 1915.

gmga227_1.jpg


backzimmer.jpg
 
I love that picture but it is a lot of confusion. I think it is PB28 but could be well wrong. it certainly is something to be considered!
 
Well this is more of an educated guess. I'm trying hard to fit this into the OB. I think–think the scroll says 28. I think that the guy wiping his nose has Swedish cuffs. I believe one of the companies of Pb28 served in Macedonia. Now go ahead and poke holes in this! We will see more when Brett gives us bigger scans.
 
Here is the latest controversy. The helmet number is not clear and has been voted most likely 270 on Flickr. However, as far as I know there was no G MGA 270. Also, the shoulder strap shows something completely different. However it too is not clear. Could there have been a G MGA 270? Was Kraus wrong?

ps2000 by joerookery, on Flickr


ps2000b by joerookery, on Flickr
 
Nice picture! I assume that the number is either a "1" or a "3". A "7" would not fit into the known scheme (known by me, that is).

From my information, the highest of the 'early' unit numbers were GMGA 252-255 which were formed in 1917. Then in October 1918 the Bavarian GMGA units 206-209 and all 14 Prussian GMGA units that still were deployed in the south were reorganized into new units 260-265. These new units of battalion size may have been only organizational and were moved back for demobilization in December 1918.

Is his belt bucke Prussian? GMGA 210 was probably Bavarian, formed in May 1915 according to my notes and was transferred directly to the Alpencorps. So my guess would be that this is GMGA 230, which would also be a better match for his shoulder flap.
 
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