Seitengewehr 98 Long Quillback

RON

RON

Well-known member
Bought this recently off eBay for a decent price.

Although it isn;t dated, I thought it looked great for its age. It was made by Simson & Co. Suhl (s/n 77575) and the seller described it as a 'combat commercial issue' Quillback that was never sharpened...

By 'commercial' he probably meant destined to the export markets? Anyway, it was too nice for me to resist the urge (it does have 1 imperial inspection mark though):

Seitengewehr98Quillback-c1900d.jpg

Seitengewehr98Quillback-c1900e.jpg

Seitengewehr98Quillback-c1900b.jpg

Seitengewehr98Quillback-c1900f.jpg

Seitengewehr98Quillback-c1900g.jpg
 
Hi Ron

Nice looking old bayonet in good, solid condition . A quick question, does it have a crest on the top of the pommel? No issue date and crown proof on the blade spine? If so, it is perhaps a Chilean contract with a serial number on the guard. 1898 pattern bayonet in every respect but intended for the Chilean military. Still a nice old bayonet and very collectible as such.

Larry
 
Hello Larry,
The only markings it has are (1) the serial nr. on the guard and (2) an inspection logo (crown on top of what seems to be a gothic 'N')...
Probably destined to the export market but since it was never sharpened, maybe it was used for parade or guard detail (within Germany)? Or did all bayonets used by the German Army have the date and crown stamped on the blade spine?
 
Hey Rony

That's an excellent question and I do not know the answer.

Coincidently I recently purchased a very honest M1871 bayonet, matching Bavarian unit numbers guard to scabbard throat, crown proof on the pommel but no date or crown proof on the blade spine. Was that a Bavarian thing to do? So there's another one for us to ponder over. :dontknow:

I sure enjoy Imperial bayonets though.

L
 
Hey Larry, I actually enjoy anything German from ww1 & 2 stamps to cars... Next thing on my agenda is to learn to speak the language instead of constantly relying on that silly Google translator.

Re. our dilemna as to the absence of any date on the spine; let's wait/hope for the cold steel experts to jump-in then...
 
Hey Ron, the "never sharpened" comment has me puzzeled. When I was younger, I had a friend who was a bayonet instructor in WWI. He told me that the soldiers were forbidden from sharpening their bayonets, the reasoning was that a dull bayonet would push a rib aside, and a sharpeded bayonet would cut into the bone and become stuck. The soldiers were taught to always keep a live round in the chamber to help dislodge a stuck bayonet.
I have had discussions with many other Veterens, and from WWII on, they seem to disagree, claiming a sharp bayonet is of more use, but then, the bayonet attack was not considered a primary weapon after the first year of WWI.
Best
Gus
 
RON said:
Hello Larry,
Or did all bayonets used by the German Army have the date and crown stamped on the blade spine?
Click to expand...

Almost all that I've seen do have the date and crowned monogram on the spine. That said I've only seen coclonial, East Asian and naval issue ones. Have a look at the "Bayonets" pages of www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk for lots of examples.

The only ones I've seen without date stamps are specifically S98aA and S98/05aA bayonets made by Simson & Co in Suhl for naval issue. There may well have been more exceptions in other branches of service (such as the Bvarian Army) that I'm unaware of.

Prussia, the smaller states and imperial forces such as the Schutztruppe, East Asians and Navy used the Prussian King's monogram. Here is an example of an 1888 Wilhelm I/II monogram from an S71/84.

w88%20marking%20med.jpg


The 3 other Kingdoms usually used their own King's monogram. Here's a Saxon "AR87" crowned monogram for King Albert (reigned 1873-1902) again on an S71/84

date%20t.jpg


Exceptions do occur. S98nA naval bayonets produced by Simson & Co in 1906 and 1907 have a crowned M monogram for Kaiserliche Marine.

m06%20med.jpg


Hope that helps a bit. I'd be curious to know of other exceptions.

Cheers
Chris
 
Hello Chris, thanks for the very helpful details.

My quillback was made by Simson & Co in Suhl, with only 1 imperial inspection proof on the pommel's locking button and a serial nr. on the cross guard.

It is the neu Art (newer type) of M1898 as introduced in 1902 with its grip made of two halves from wood, which overall makes it a 'S98 nA'.

This being said, I'm still stuck between export or with some luck some Bavarian unmarked unit...

GermanSeitengewehr98nAQuillback-c1900g.jpg

 
Glad to be of some help. That is a curious example as the weapon number does not seem to have any unit markings either... I know wartime bayonets tended not to have unit markings but I would have thought the S98aA was made pre-war (I'm not sure on that though).

Cheers
Chris
 
Well, according to the literature available online, "at the start of the war German military found out very soon that if a soldier plunged this type of bayonet through the ribs of his enemy, it would be stuck, because the enemy would bend forward and the blade would be stuck between the front and rear part of the ribs. The bayonet could not be removed, nor the rifle. This delay in close combat could be fatal.

Another point was that these long bayonets were weak and likely to break. For these reasons the M1898 bayonets were shortened. At the same time the complete rifle and bayonet together became handier in the trenches." (source: http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/98bayonets/98bayonets3.htm)

And then came the S98/05 aA & nA in 1914-15...
 
Simpson & Company is the only manufacturer known to have produced issue S98aA and S98nA bayonets for the German military without a royal cypher and date on the blade spine. These particular bayonets were produced for the Navy in 1901 and 1902. See German Bayonets by Anthony Carter, volume 2, page 67.

Simpson also produced large quantities of S98 bayonets for export to Peru and Turkey. Since your bayonet has a serial number on the cross guard it is most likely an export model as bayonets issued to the Imperial German army and navy were not serialized per se. The only accountability type marking normally found will be the unit identification information stamped on the cross guard and scabbard throat. A typical unit marking would be, for example, 5.G.G.12.225. This translates to 5th Guard Grenadier Regiment, 12th company, weapon number 225. Additionally, the serial number on the bayonet, 77575, is not consistent with Imperial German weapon serialization practices. Imperial German rifle serialization would be up to 4 digits with or without a lower case letter(s) suffix.

As for possible Bavarian use, this is doubtful as Simpson & company is not known to have produced any S98 bayonets for Bavaria. The known manufacturers who supplied Bavaria with the S98 bayonet were; Alex Coppel, C G Haenel and V C Schilling. See German Bayonets volume 2 pages 65 and 66.

I hope the above is helpful.

Reservist1
 
R1, I guess you just solved the mystery... Thanks for the info.!

(although I'm dissapointed it didn't turn out a bayonet for the domestic market)
 
Over the years I have seen a few German issue bayonets with a serial number on the crossguard. These were always Bavarian proofed on the spine crown/O over the date. Has anyone else noticed this?
Steve
 
Steve

The 1871 Bavarian marked bayonet I mentioned earlier has a 4 digit serial number on the guard too. I checked my Werder bayonets and they are without any proofs on the spine, but serial numbered and unit marked on the guard.

Ron, sorry on the Chile ID suggestion on your bayonet, I must have been thinking of dinner ](*,) , as R1 correctly said Peru was an export recipient of this pattern bayonet. Any chance for a photo of the top of the pommel?

R1 great info :thumb up:

Larry
 
Larry,
There's a closeup of the upper pommel further up towards the top of this thread--it has the only inspection proof I could find--and here's a couple more:
Quillback-3.jpg

Quillback-2.jpg
 
In a regimental marking, the last number is usually the 'weapon number'. The waffenmeister stamped each piece which belonged to the same category with consecutive numbers. The Bavarians also did this, but you can often also find a serial number (sometimes in addition to a regimental marking) on the side of crossguard of Bavarian bayonets. These are not weapon numbers but weapon rack numbers. Sometimes they're also on the quillion or the part of the crossguard facing down. If you're lucky enough, you can also find matching weapon rack numbers on the scabbard (near the mouth or the ball-tip.
Hard to say whether this is one or not though without more stamps. My first guess would have been Peruvian as well, but the crest is not there so...
There were 3 Naval contracts by Simson and one lacked abnahme (as shown by Chris) on the spine, but there should be more inspection stamps to be one of those, you're not that lucky.
Regarding what Chris said about regimental markings, it is certainly true that it is amazingly hard to find a regimental marking on a wartime piece. Also, many pre-war pieces do bear them, but not all. Just for your information.
So no conclusive answer, but hopefully some education on the Bavarian pieces.

This S98/05nA in my collection shows what I was explaining before. It has a rare wartime stamp for the First Bavarian Jäger Bataillon, Ersatz Abteilung. There's no regimental on the scabbard, but the numbers on the quillion and guard do match. Also rare is that it has Prussian abnahme (W15 instead of script L what you would expect), but I have more pieces like this.
DSC03170.jpg
 
I have a steel S98/05 Butcher Blade scabbard that is numbered 33 on the ball finial in the same manner as your example above.

My two cents for the above S98 that Ron has posted is a private purchase bayonet, possibly for walking out, but not one of the true walking out models.
 
Hello both,
What do you mean by 'walking out' and what a 'true walking out' bayonet be like?
 
Hi Ron, it's truely a marvelous bayonet, but it's also definately the Peruvian variant. When it was a German one, there should be acceptancestamps all over it and also the year of production on the back of the blade...
The number on your bayonet is also a typical one for the peruvian variant... and there are normally no regimental markings on a dressbayonet, since they are private purchase...

Adler
 
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