The Hairdresser

[Broadsword]

This is very expensive.

But is it the real thing???

Poor photos.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CASQUE-A-POINTE-OFFICIER-PRUSSIEN_W0QQitemZ6605713739QQcategoryZ79243QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Gustaf]

Hi Broadsword,
I am not even going to take the time to look at this item, we have discussed this seller's items before, the last helmet he listed had photos from so many different items, it would be impossible to tell what was actually for sale, another red flag is the fact that he hides the buyer's ID, and the poor photos are yet another worry, if you are going to sell a high ticket item, it would seem that good photos would ge the first thing one posted. He also gives you 3 shots of the same angle. I do not like the whole feel of the thing, this seller has 100% positive feedback, and has sold a Cuitisier's helmet and Cuirass for 3900 Euros.
Gus

 

[Broadsword]

Sound advice.
Thanks

 

[Doc_Holliday]

Hi..

There is really many fakes of this model but I am not sure with this one. As Gus said the pics suxs. Try ask the seller for a better picture of the cocardes. Many of the fakes have a baby-blue colour. Its hard to see on these pics.

Doc

 

[joerookery]

Many of the fakes have a baby-blue colour.

Doc we beat this horse in the old forum on Brunswick and Mecklenburg cockade colors. One of the "baby blue" ones ended up on Kunst & Militaria and the consensus was lots of color differences but nothing definitive. Stubbs has pictures of BOTH! Lacarde beat up 92nd repros but the Neuman catalog showed loads of posibilties discounted by many previous pundits. I would love to learn more. Where / what did you use to determine this?

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Runninghorse.htm

Cockade color is interesting. Two issues are the color of blue and the color of ring. Blues go from very dark to very light. There doesn't seem to be anything conclusive in these differences just 100 years of dirt etc. The rings have been found in both gold and silver. Yellow is correct but it might well be that the silver ones didn't hold the yellow color.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the cyan value of the Braunschweig Kokarde would be the least of my concerns regarding this helmet. Once again, we are looking at a supposed reserve officer Wappen. What would be the simplest route to faking a rare Wappen requiring a "Fuerst" motto? Why, a reserve eagle with no motto at all. Does that Reserve cross read "Fuerst?" Who can tell from those pictures.

The interior view appears to reveal the correct spike for a Trichter. That much is good for Braunschweig. Without better pictures, I wouldn't "spend a P" for it.

Joe, I still believe the top Kokarde in your post is one of Randy's reproductions. It looks identical to the one pictured on page 32 of his book (and virtually all those pictured are reproductions). I wouldn't place too much faith in the color of that specimen.

Brian has a great Braunschweig Kokarde. Perhaps, he will post a picture for us.

Chas.

 

[Anonymous]

Until he does, though, here are two for your consideration. Both of these are legit:

The rings have been found in both gold and silver. Yellow is correct but it might well be that the silver ones didn't hold the yellow color.

Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt would be blue with silver rings.

Chas.

 

[b.loree]

As requested, my Braunschweig officer kokarde:

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Brian:

Excellent! Thanks for posting the pix. I would say these three Kokarden are exceedingly close in color. Is it my imagination, or is the back or your Kokarde black?

Chas.

 

[Anonymous]

I just checked the reverse of my IR 92 II Bat Kokarde, which also proved to be matte black. Actually, this is none too surprising. I've been going through my spare Kokarden this past weekend. Every original Reichskokarde has a matte black reverse. This most likely represents a primer coat. All my phonies have glossy backsides.

Something to consider when evaluating Kokarden for authenticity.

Chas.

 

[b.loree]

You are correct Chas, the back of my Braunschweig officer kokarde is black. Regarding this Ebay helme Chas, which started all of this. An argument can be made that if you are a faker and go for the reservists version of this Regt then you have to produce the reservist cross and Prussian eagle wappen without motto. In each case, you have to have an original to make a mold from in the galvano plastic process. The fake officer wappen that I have seen recently which included: Baden, Prussian and Prussian Reservist officer wappen all were extremely shiny. They had frosting with highlights in the usual places. The dead giveaway, was the reverse side which was also very clean and bright with gilt screw posts and dark grey solder. I recently sold one of these wappen on ebay when I discovered it in my spares. Regarding this helme, all you would have to do would be lay hands on it and take off the plate. This experience though is not worth all of the hassel and money that it would necessitate. Brian

 

[Anonymous]

Or, start with a legitimate Preußen reserve officer's helmet, swap out the Preußen Kokarde for a Braunschweiger, and mate an electroformed Totenkopf to the Wappen.

A $1K helmet upgraded to 3K plus. A pretty good return for a minimal amount of effort.

Chas.

 

[joerookery]

Hand me down my bedpan. Once again I ride toward the windmill. My whole discussion has been on cockade colors.

here are two for your consideration. Both of these are legit:

Hmmmmmm and therefore the lighter blues are not??????

Tafel 179

Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt would be blue with silver rings.

Really????
Tafel 179

This source could be wrong let's try Ruhl

Now just to show that colors are often changing here is Menzel

I'm sure there are many shades out there. My opinion....shade=inconclusive.

How is that for late nite post San Antonio city wine tasting?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Joe:

I made no comment whatsoever regarding the paler shade of blue. When I stated "both of these are legit," it was with the knowledge that these Kokarden repose on real Braunschweiger helmets.

I've seen your I/II Bataillon up close and never doubted the authenticity of either the helmet or the Kokarde.

My sole criticism is that ultra glossy, no trace of age or wear, poor detail in the gold rings (or ring, if you prefer), not attached to a helmet, Kokarde you posted above is a modern reproduction and useless to any discussion of authentic color.

As for Ruhl, how faithful is a reprint of a graphic representation of something? When I look at the Sachsen-Weimar Kokarde, I see blue mixed in with the green (a printing registration error). Menzel? These are all drawings. I may be thick, but isn't an actual Kokarde more convincing than a comic book quality drawing?

Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, blue with silver ring; Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, silver with blue ring. Yes, really. I must have missed a contradiction somewhere. I should clarify, for Mannschaften Kokarden, substitute blue and white (blue, white, blue) for Rudolstadt and white and blue (white, blue, white) for Sondershausen. Nowhere do I see blue/silver as the colors of Braunschweig.

It is a late night.

Chas.

 

[gsm7]

not guilty on this one definately not one of the repros i sell

 

[joerookery]

San Antonio city wine tasting

The morning after .... yuck :homework:

Kokarde you posted above is a modern reproduction and useless to any discussion of authentic color.

True

As for Ruhl, how faithful is a reprint of a graphic representation of something?

The Ruhl is original but your point is well taken. How good is any printing?
The Menzel colors are also original but the shades are very different than Ruhl or Knotel.

Nowhere do I see blue/silver as the colors of Braunschweig.

Gold/yellow is correct. However there seem to be a lot of Brunswick Officer ones with little or no gold left. It can be something we can examine at SOS if there are some to look at. My purpose was to show how the Schwarzburg shade is darker in MOST (but not all) period color references.

So we are back to the original question. What is the correct shade for Brunswick?

isn't an actual Kokarde more convincing than a comic book quality drawing?

With 100 years of dirt fading etc..... I think the beauty of this forum is that we debate it! cockades and printing.......who knows which is better?

 

[reservist1]

Joe: Chas makes a very good point about color variation in printed material whether original or reprint. As an example the plates in Das Deutsche Heer can vary from copy to copy of the reference. The following is from plate 179 in my copy and you can see that the blue is much darker than in your copy.

While Ruhl, Menze and Das Deutsche Heer are all very good references I don't think we should rely on them for accurate color renditions.

Reservist1

 

[Anonymous]

The morning after .... yuck :homework:

"There's got to be a morning after...."

Hi Joe:

Gus, Bill, and I can tell you a story about one of the Braunschweig helmets we examined at the 2005 SOS. It was on Weitze's table.

We'll do this over a glass of beer. None of that sissified grape juice for me.

Chas.