The Leather Chin Strap

[b.loree]

I thought, we should get into a discussion concerning the various leather, original and reproduction chin straps that one encounters in this pickelhauben collection addiction that we all suffer from. I am going to start with a very obvious reproduction that I purchased from a dealer at a military show. This has steel fittings:

The biggest give away here is the use of a pebbled leather and the fact that the leather is dyed black on both sides. The presence of parallel lines at the sides of the strap is per the originals. There is also no obvious signs of use, cracking to finish, rust etc. Just too new in appearance. Chin straps have to be hand stitched due to the fact that thread is looped around the strap at both edges.

 

[ebeeby]

When were brass fittings used? When was the change made from scales to leather straps? Why do some "lobstertails" have leather straps and others have scales? What are the differences between say, a M1915 picklehaube strap and an M1916 stahlhelm strap?

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

When were brass fittings used? When was the change made from scales to leather straps? Why so some "lobstertails" have leather straps and others have scales?

Read THIS

 

[RON]

This is one of the best tutorials thus far; please keep listing more photos of fake vs. real chinstraps (and cockades) with the give-aways. Ersatz straps as well. :thumb up:

And needless to say Kaiser's Bunker has been my reference of choice ever since I discovered it on the Net. :thumb up:

Just a quick clarification: From my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong Tony, the same leather--sometimes replaced by ersatz cloth--chinstrap was used on all headgear that needed one, mainly the EM Pickelhaube, the EM Shako, the Stahlhelm (M16 & M17) and the Cav. EM Metalhelmes (Kurassier & JZP 'lobster tails'). They only gradually switched from brass to feldgrau treated steel fittings in 1915.

Now my question is: Is it true that the NCO chinstraps kept the brass fittings to get distinguished from EM?

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Now my question is: Is it true that the NCO chinstraps kept the brass fittings to get distinguished from EM?

Yes to your first question, but where did you hear that NCO story? Remember: every helmet on ebay is an NCO and at a show, every WWII German thing was removed from a dead SS officer.

 

[RON]

I guess this NCO thing is an urban myth... (i.e. yes, all I had before I discovered you guys was eBay )
I am posting my very own M1915 EM leather strap for assessment:

As you can see, it has'nt stopped crumbling and I'd love to know if there's a way to slow down/delay its deterioration? (the same would apply to helmet liners I guess)

I will soon post my Stahlhelm Ersatz strap as well.

 

[Peter_Suciu]

Yes to your first question, but where did you hear that NCO story? Remember: every helmet on ebay is an NCO and at a show, every WWII German thing was removed from a dead SS officer.

And found in a barn! Don't forget the barn!

 

[RON]

What/who was found in a barn?? The dead SS soldier or the German 'thing'?
Let's not forget the Vet pick-up as all eBay sellers seem to have relatives in the army who've taken part in either war, sometimes both AND the US Civil War

 

[b.loree]

Nice M15 strap Ron...grey metal fittings and chunky buckles. The buckles on pre M15 straps are finer and of course brass or nickel depending on the wappen colour. Your strap shows the results of drying out...ie the leather fibres lose their natural oils dry out, and the finish starts to flake away. We also commonly see this on many liers. Ultimately, the leather starts to desintegrate which is known as "red rot" because the leather turns a rusty red colour. (Both Tony and I use a product called Lexol to add moisture to liners etc. They have both a cleaner and preservative available. Canuck Tire carries it I believe.) It litterally falls to dust in your hands. I will do some additional posts of strap pics tonight.

 

[RON]

Thanks Brian. I miss places like Canadian Tire, Reno Depot/Rona, Wal-Mart, Costco, etc. here in Lebanon...
Would you apply this LEXOL everywhere that has leather (liners, straps and hauben?) Do you have to remove the metal fittings first to avoid contact with the product and an eventual chemical reaction or not?
In other words, how do I get my M15s to shine again without damaging the metal parts and what's the best way to stop the fungus (white spots/dots) accumulating on the liners? LEXOL again?

 

[b.loree]

Liners and straps Ron for the Lexol. There is another product that I started with called Pecards but it is too greasy... very much like the old dubbin. DO NOT EVER apply Neats foot oil this rots the leather in time and will destroy anything leather. You really can't apply anything to the shell and visors although, when I first started collecting I ran into a collector who put vaseline on the outside of his helmet shells. It would be cool to see what shape those helmets are in now!! NOT!!

 

[b.loree]

Some additional fotos of original straps as promised:
(This post was updated May 2019)

The 3 original styles of fittings: neusilber, brass and M15 steel.

 

[badener]

With the price of haubes what they are , maybe a little vaseline would help? :tongue3:

 

[Larmo]

Brian

This is an example of a replica chinstrap which is produced in the Czech Republic. The metal fittings all have this rather scaly finish to them, the leather is undyed, and of course, smells new. The nose, knows best sometimes. Interestingly the fit of the connectors is not the best, they often have to be filed a bit to slip over the posts. Not always though...

I have seen these for sale at the MAX and SOS, always being offered as reproductions.

Larry

 

[b.loree]

Hi Larry thanks for the pics. I had seen a company from the Czech Republic selling straps on Ebay, is this strap of yours from the same company?? To me, this repro strap is inside out. They have used the flesh side of the hide (very rough with fibres) rather than the hair side of the hide (smooth) to be seen from the outside. This was never done by the Germans....smooth side is always out and that is the side which is dyed black. I like their fittings though! Some close ups of a set of pre war brass buckles and an unusual but original M91 fitting. I have 2 sets of these "thicker" end fittings. One set came on an OR M95 Garde helmet strap. I would appreciate some additional pics of these thicker M91 fittings from other collectors to confirm this rarer style.

A last comment to our newer collectors... as you may have noted through helmets you have seen on Ebay or perhaps militaria shows, it is very common to have the M91 end fittings present on the side posts...usually just one, on a good day two. The buckles for the most part have been lost over time when the strap either broke or disintegrated. Thus we see complete original straps go for $250+ on Ebay. Consequently, we collectors have to accept the repro strap to complete our helmets for the most part unless you have the extra cash. We do not have to accept repro cockades as even the rare State ones can be found if you are patient.

 

[RON]

Brian, great thread, great tips, thanks for sharing and by all means please keep it coming!

And to add to your last comment, the strap I posted was bought less than a year ago from a friendly lady on eBay. She had a couple that were taken off some dismantled rotting pickelhaubes--or at least that was the story! More importantly they looked real, she knew what she was talking about (very precise & detailed description with good closeup pics) and she was willing to guarantee them for life. I got mine for $225 all in. which is the most expensive I ever paid on an old rotting piece of leather.

 

[b.loree]

Well at $225, you got a bit of a deal. It is rough but at the same time it is all together. Welcome to the world of straps! Some close ups of buckles and M91 fittings: Nickel buckles (pre war)

nickel end fitting:

A couple of obvious repro brass buckles on a repro strap:

I presume these were based on an original M15 buckle?? They just look bad compared to the originals!. Compare the original 100 yr old leather to the newly made leather. This repro leather strap is good in that it is not dyed on both sides nor does it have a pebbled finish.
There are more unusual private purchase straps out there, for example Mr Schnurr on a certain shako in your possession.

 

[RON]

A wartime strap just sold off eBay for $206.50.
It seems OK; isn't it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=110662162767&si=s8TMwp84Rg%252BklzcORVMIWiSJxaI%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

 

[b.loree]

Pictures are lousy Ron but it looks like a nice brass strap to me. Again you see those fine brass buckles! We have all heard about leather shortages in the German Army and how this effected chin straps etc:
This is the only partial strap that I have which shows "leather economy" and the use of split brad rivets to secure fittings. Again, any member who has further examples, please post some pics.

Reverse

 

[Stahlhelm]

Some close ups of a set of pre war brass buckles and an unusual but original M91 fitting. I have 2 sets of these "thicker" end fittings. One set came on an OR M95 Garde helmet strap. I would appreciate some additional pics of these thicker M91 fittings from other collectors to confirm this rarer style.quote]

Brian, I've also owned two straps with the thicker brass fitting. Here's one of them which came with my square dip M16 Stahlhelm. The leather may look like it's rough side out, but that's due to the surface having largely flaked away.

Here's one, again from a steel helmet, which has the ends of the strap riveted instead of sewn in place. I've seen quite a few of these, and from my experience they've always had brass fittings, never steel.

Here are steel fittings from 3 wartime chinstraps which have their zinc coating relatively well preserved.

Excellent and very informative thread.

Hans