The Leather Chin Strap
- Thread starter b.loree
- Start date
usa1918
Member
This may be a question for another thread...but I figure it's a related subject. I mainly collect First war US, but have picked up a few spikes over the years. I've looked through Tony's info (by the way thanks..a lot of great info) but I couldn't find any info on any M15 gray painted officer's helmets. Did they make them? And if they did, what kind of chinstrap did they use? Was it leather or a variation of the M98 chinscales?
The officer's M1915 helmets were the sam as the OR's from my experiance, but I think most officers continued to wear th earlier private purchase helmets. The one Officer's helmet I have is an M1915, it has the same chin strap as the OR's. the only difference is that it has officer's Kockarden and an inscription of the owner's name and rank in the liner.
Best
Gus
Best
Gus
RON
Well-known member
Hey Gus,
From what I've learned, Officer M1915 Pickelhaubes were similar to the M1897 only upgraded with twist-off spikes, M91 posts as well as (officer) cockades and chinscales that would fit these posts.
Moreover, in the field, officers would replace their chinscales with regular (leather) chinstraps and cover/camouflage their helmets with Uberzugs so they wouldn't be distinguished/picked-up by the enemy.
There's a good example of an Officer M1915 pickelhaube on Kaiser's Bunker (where else?
)
From what I've learned, Officer M1915 Pickelhaubes were similar to the M1897 only upgraded with twist-off spikes, M91 posts as well as (officer) cockades and chinscales that would fit these posts.
Moreover, in the field, officers would replace their chinscales with regular (leather) chinstraps and cover/camouflage their helmets with Uberzugs so they wouldn't be distinguished/picked-up by the enemy.
There's a good example of an Officer M1915 pickelhaube on Kaiser's Bunker (where else?
)
Right you are Ron, here is a link to that helmet http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh24.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I did not consider these to be true M1915 helmets, as the main reason for changing to the M15 was to replace the brass fittings with painted steel, because of the shortage of brass needed for shell casings.
Best
Gsu
I did not consider these to be true M1915 helmets, as the main reason for changing to the M15 was to replace the brass fittings with painted steel, because of the shortage of brass needed for shell casings.
Best
Gsu
usa1918
Member
Thanks Gentlemen,
I knew I had seen an example, but could not remember where. And Gus, enjoyed your pix of the different 1st war .45's. When I get a chance I'll post my Springfield Armory and the Colt that I got in a officer's valise grouping. As well as my Great uncle's 77th Lost Battalion uniform group
Keith
I knew I had seen an example, but could not remember where. And Gus, enjoyed your pix of the different 1st war .45's. When I get a chance I'll post my Springfield Armory and the Colt that I got in a officer's valise grouping. As well as my Great uncle's 77th Lost Battalion uniform group
Keith
Here are a few pics of chin strap ends and buckles. All recovered from dugouts over the years using a garden sieve.
You can see there are many variations of the 1891/5 pattern attachments and buckles. Some are cleaned and some are as found. Some are really crude in manufacture and some are very delicate.
The pics leave a lot to be desired, but it is 3 in the morning and I have had a few glasses of vin rouge
I really need to get this photography thing sorted out.
As you can see the pics confirm the genuine nature of the "thicker" 1891 ends mentioned by Brian (if there was ever any doubt) One point of interest though is the fact that one of these early attachments is twice as thick as the other. I tried to photograph this but with a flash as my only light and no stand, they were blurred, glary and of no value. Were these issued for use with the stahlhelm, or were they just a manufacturing diff? They do not fit on an 1895 stud, but they will fit the slightly longer 1891. However, there is no way a cockarde is going on there aswell. Maybe they were private purchase? I have no idea..it is very very heavy manufacture.
As I said all of these are 100% original, but some of them are so off center and poorly made I would call them fake or remakes if I saw them on a strap on ebay for example.
The pics are rubbish I know. I also have a few complete and partial straps I have found over the years. I gave up trying to photograph them, but I will get them posted as soon as possible.
A couple of interesting points about the straps I will mention. All the straps I have found that were assembled with stiching as opposed to a rivot, were stitched using only 3 holes. Some of the pics on here and some of the straps in my own collection have 4 or 5 holes. Is this just wartime economy, for speed of manufacture or just pure chance and it depended entirely on the chap with the needle in his hand? Also not all the ends on the straps I have found actually match. Most do, but on one example for sure, and on another that im pretty certain matches, the ends and buckles are actually different. Not by a lot, but enough to notice.
I have actually used a few of the ends that matched to remake straps for my own collection. I use old suitcase straps or similar, and if its to heavy, I use my wood lathe with a blank wrapped in 60 grit to thin it down. In my opinion they look far more pleasing than the repro straps on the market and atleast I know the fittings are 100% genuine. I can almost hear the purists groaning in the distance :lol: They make a far better stand in than all the repro straps I have seen, and when I replace them with an original, they move to the next helmet missing its strap. I will post a few pics of my remade straps at some point.
1915 buckles at the top. See the diff. in thickness on the centre bars on most of the 1891/5 buckles. 3 in the middle are all very similar, the bottom row are all different, I think bottom right may well be private purchase? The 1915 pattern buckles at the top are all different, in size and shape
Look how out of line the `V` notch on the top left one is, also the heavy early pattern 1891 mentioned by Brian in the top row, look how badly made it is. The one below it has a much wider slot for the leather strap. The second early pattern end on the bottom row is twice as thick as all the others. This is just a selection of the ends I have found over the years, but it serves to show the variety of manufacture in chinstrap metalwork.
Just another slightly better pic of the 91/95 ends.
You can see there are many variations of the 1891/5 pattern attachments and buckles. Some are cleaned and some are as found. Some are really crude in manufacture and some are very delicate.
The pics leave a lot to be desired, but it is 3 in the morning and I have had a few glasses of vin rouge
I really need to get this photography thing sorted out.
As you can see the pics confirm the genuine nature of the "thicker" 1891 ends mentioned by Brian (if there was ever any doubt) One point of interest though is the fact that one of these early attachments is twice as thick as the other. I tried to photograph this but with a flash as my only light and no stand, they were blurred, glary and of no value. Were these issued for use with the stahlhelm, or were they just a manufacturing diff? They do not fit on an 1895 stud, but they will fit the slightly longer 1891. However, there is no way a cockarde is going on there aswell. Maybe they were private purchase? I have no idea..it is very very heavy manufacture.
As I said all of these are 100% original, but some of them are so off center and poorly made I would call them fake or remakes if I saw them on a strap on ebay for example.
The pics are rubbish I know. I also have a few complete and partial straps I have found over the years. I gave up trying to photograph them, but I will get them posted as soon as possible.
A couple of interesting points about the straps I will mention. All the straps I have found that were assembled with stiching as opposed to a rivot, were stitched using only 3 holes. Some of the pics on here and some of the straps in my own collection have 4 or 5 holes. Is this just wartime economy, for speed of manufacture or just pure chance and it depended entirely on the chap with the needle in his hand? Also not all the ends on the straps I have found actually match. Most do, but on one example for sure, and on another that im pretty certain matches, the ends and buckles are actually different. Not by a lot, but enough to notice.
I have actually used a few of the ends that matched to remake straps for my own collection. I use old suitcase straps or similar, and if its to heavy, I use my wood lathe with a blank wrapped in 60 grit to thin it down. In my opinion they look far more pleasing than the repro straps on the market and atleast I know the fittings are 100% genuine. I can almost hear the purists groaning in the distance :lol: They make a far better stand in than all the repro straps I have seen, and when I replace them with an original, they move to the next helmet missing its strap. I will post a few pics of my remade straps at some point.
1915 buckles at the top. See the diff. in thickness on the centre bars on most of the 1891/5 buckles. 3 in the middle are all very similar, the bottom row are all different, I think bottom right may well be private purchase? The 1915 pattern buckles at the top are all different, in size and shape
Look how out of line the `V` notch on the top left one is, also the heavy early pattern 1891 mentioned by Brian in the top row, look how badly made it is. The one below it has a much wider slot for the leather strap. The second early pattern end on the bottom row is twice as thick as all the others. This is just a selection of the ends I have found over the years, but it serves to show the variety of manufacture in chinstrap metalwork.
Just another slightly better pic of the 91/95 ends.
Sorry Keith..I missed that one..its big 60ft by 15ft..tbh its a floating static home..I have a full 2 rooms (and most of the other rooms) dedicated to my collection, the corridor is my work shop, where my lathe lives. I have a full sized dug out display in one room and a full size genuine ww1 tree complete with shell holes, shrapnel balls and shell shards next to the tv. Understandably Im not very popular with the "other half" for much of the time, even though she did spend over 3 hours extracting the tree from where french foresters had stacked it ready to be logged and burnt!! :x
60ft by 15ft..tbh its a floating static home..I have a full 2 rooms (and most of the other rooms) dedicated to my collection, the corridor is my work shop, where my lathe lives. I have a full sized dug out display in one room and a full size genuine ww1 tree complete with shell holes, shrapnel balls and shell shards next to the tv. Understandably Im not very popular with the "other half" for much of the time, even though she did spend over 3 hours extracting the tree from where french foresters had stacked it ready to be logged and burnt!! :x
RON
Well-known member
Pursuant to Brian's request, here are closeups of the "Ersatz chinstrap" that came with my near mint size 53 M1915 Baden EM Infantry Pickelhaube made by 'J.M. Eckart Ulm am Donau' in 1916. As per the seller's description, this is an "original Ersatz pattern, secured behind the buckles with a single rivet vice stitches":
Maple Creek
Active member
Here's a chinstrap that came with an M15 Prussian pickelhaube that I just picked up. The piece was an out-of-the-woodwork find that I didn't pay much money for, so I'm pretty sure it's original. It occurred to me, however, that the leather might be an old replacement made for the souvenir market, so I was interested in opinions.
Does it look original?
Might this be correct for a grey-trim M15 pickelhaube?
Are riveted type chinstraps more common on certain types of helmets? I recall seeing these on a couple of Jager zu Pferde helmets.
Mark D.
Does it look original?
Might this be correct for a grey-trim M15 pickelhaube?
Are riveted type chinstraps more common on certain types of helmets? I recall seeing these on a couple of Jager zu Pferde helmets.
Mark D.
Maple Creek
Active member
more pictures of the same cs
Maple Creek
Active member
full length
Looks totally original to me. Note the fine brass buckles with rounded edges and the undyed rear side of the strap. Repros do not have the rounded edges, they are very square with sharp edges. Both sides of the leather are usually dyed black. Originals are only dyed on the front side facing out from the helmet. The use of rivets obviously would speed up the manufacturing process versus hand stitching. One wonders however, why the riveted originals are more scarce than the stitched???
Maple Creek
Active member
Brian, Thanks. I appreciate your opinion.
Cheers,
Mark
e="b.loree"]Looks totally original to me. Note the fine brass buckles with rounded edges and the undyed rear side of the strap. Repros do not have the rounded edges, they are very square with sharp edges. Both sides of the leather are usually dyed black. Originals are only dyed on the front side facing out from the helmet. The use of rivets obviously would speed up the manufacturing process versus hand stitching. One wonders however, why the riveted originals are more scarce than the stitched???[/quote]
Cheers,
Mark
e="b.loree"]Looks totally original to me. Note the fine brass buckles with rounded edges and the undyed rear side of the strap. Repros do not have the rounded edges, they are very square with sharp edges. Both sides of the leather are usually dyed black. Originals are only dyed on the front side facing out from the helmet. The use of rivets obviously would speed up the manufacturing process versus hand stitching. One wonders however, why the riveted originals are more scarce than the stitched???[/quote]
aicusv
Well-known member
Sorry for join in this post late, but I'm new to the forum. I'm old enough to have known veterans and interviewed a few. My wife's Uncle had served in IR123 1916-1918. In one of my conversations with him I asked about helmets and we did talk a little about chin straps. According to him, there was a period when they were only issued the steel helmets upon entering the trenches. That there was a depot set up just behind the lines where they would draw helmets upon entering their tour in the trenches. Once their tour was over and they were sent back to the rear area, they would turn in the helmets. In the rear area they would wear the pickelhaube. He claimed that there was a shortage of chin straps and they were required to remove the strap from the pickelhaube and use it on the steel helmet and then switch it back again. He stated that the chin straps became a very guarded items by the soldiers.
I do remember seeing a steel helmet (M-16) that had cockades attached to the post under the strap. It was in the collection of a gentleman who began collecting in the 1930s. He claimed that it was a battlefield pick up and came with the cockades.
I do remember seeing a steel helmet (M-16) that had cockades attached to the post under the strap. It was in the collection of a gentleman who began collecting in the 1930s. He claimed that it was a battlefield pick up and came with the cockades.