Train Unit.

J

Jerry Rehr

New member
I have two Prussian helmets and wonder if they are from the same unit.
Here are the markings;
1. TB. 8 &1901 (M95.)
2. Tr. A. 8 &1915 (M15.)
Dont get excited James they are not for sale you have too many of these anyhow.
SOS SOS SOS SOS SOS
Thanks
:D :D
Jerry
 
Well James the later of the two markings is in Joe's data bank and I think the earlier one is too or I showed it to you a local show here a few years ago. Are these the same unit?
Jerry
 
Is it Train Arbeitezug? =Tr. A. 8. (sameo sameo?)
Thanks Gus for filling in a knowledge gap so desperately need in the WAF forum.
:D :D
Jerry
 
Here are the markings;
1. TB. 8 &1901 (M95.)
2. Tr. A. 8 &1915 (M15.)
Click to expand...

I think that Chas gave you the correct and easy answer. The entire train thing is extremely complicated and I don't think anybody has a real handle on it. Before the war each corps had a Train Battalion.–Upon mobilization these battalions were split many different ways. And their splits were split again and reorganized pretty much every year. It can make your head hurt and I do not think anybody really has a good handle on it. The explanation in Cron
is very general and not specific by Army Corps.

To add to the problem is the word Abteilung. This does not translate perfectly. Americans generally look at the word and translate it to detachment. Detachments in our doctrinal mind are small units. It did not mean the same thing to the Germans–it even seems to be somewhat elusive depending upon the dialect. But for an example field artillery battalions were called Abteilung.

From the perspective of markings it seems as though for the most part–prewar battalions use TB and every other kind of postwar split seems to use TA. We have examples of both in the database.

Another point just off the top of my head is I believe that TB eight was based in Koblenz. If you remember, that was the warehouse which supplied so many war bond helmets and souvenirs to America.

Great question.
 
Thanks guys! That's what I suspected but wanted to make sure. The pre war was TB8 and it changed for what ever reason to war time Tr.A. 8.
Not to make it too complicated but the reference I have refers to it as a Arbeitzug. What is the difference as to Abteilung Mr. LS.?
:D :D
Jerry
 
Jerry, I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. I'm twelve hundred miles from my references at present and was working from memory.

I seem to recall the Bruno has a Train helmet that was subject to the same inquiry. Perhaps, he will be able to fill in some of the blanks.

Don't forget, the machine gun (Maschinengewehrabteilungen) units, which wore a Tschako of green felt with brown leather. The distinction was significant enough to entitle these Abteilungen to wear something unique.

From memory, I can't help regarding the term "Arbeitzug," other than it being one of those notorious German portmanteau words translating to "work train.". But then, we're not discussing Eisenbahn, here.

Chas
 
The A.K.O. of 19 March 1914 renamed with effect 1 April 1914 all Train-Bataillon as Train-Abteilung. Similarly, the former Train-Kompagnie became Train-Eskadron.

Regards
Glenn
 
Glenn,

Do you have a copy of that? The only ones I have start on one AUGUST. That is several months earlier and was pre-mobilization. I would love to read this. As I know you have the Saxon stuff, I wonder how much of a timeline difference there was between the Prussian a.k.o and the Saxon equivalent.?!
 
The reference I have is for military abbreviations its dated 1943 and most of it was drawn from WW1 information. It was it called an Arbeitezug.. a work Train. I understand the Eisenbahn thing too. I just thought maybe there was a difference and now I'm very happy my two helmets are from the same Unit only 14 years apart.
Thanks for the information.
:D :D
Jerry
 
Joe

My pleasure.

Regards
Glenn

train.jpg
 
Joe

No difference with the effective date for the Saxons; just published a few days later.

Regards
Glenn

train2.jpg
 
Joe

It can make your head hurt and I do not think anybody really has a good handle on it.
Click to expand...

Although relatively complicated, I think the thing to take on board regarding the development of the Train troops is this: In peacetime they were only ever considered as a tiny cadre for a great expansion in time of war. At mobilisation in 1914, for all intents and purposes the peacetime Train battalions (Abteilungen) were dissolved, leaving for training purposes an Ersatz (replacement) battalion of the same name/number and then providing the regular cadre for the huge expansion of Train units (Columns and Parks) formed at this time. Kraus gives a good overview of the wartime uniform in his two volume work.

Regards
Glenn
 
I think the uniform stuff is pretty straightforward. However, there was this Organizational split in late 1914 and then another reorganization in 1915 and then yet a further split out. Keeping track of who is on first I think is extremely complicated. I wish it was easy and it does not help that the training Battalion of prewar size was expanded into so many different branches of service. Ordinance alone with its munition column types makes my head hurt. Is there someplace you know that explains it relatively cleanly?
 
Joe

the best explanation I have come across is a chapter in "Der Weltkampf um Ehre und Recht" volume six by the former General der Munitionskolonnen und des Trains im Großen Hauptquartier, Generalleutnant Hans Föst. General Föst also wrote a book by the title of "Munitionskolonnen und Trains im Weltkriege" which unfortunately is nigh on impossible to find!

What is not available at this time (to the best of my knowledge), is anything that lists who actually formed what on mobilization. Kraus and Busche have recently published Handbuch der Verbände und Truppen des deutschen Heeres 1914-1918. Teil IX: Feldartillerie. Band 3 und 4, Die Munitionskolonnen der Feldartillerie which covers the munition columns of the field artillery but these guys were not Train but artillery personnel. I assume they will get around to the Train columns in time.

Regards
Glenn
 
Glenn,

I was not even aware of volume 3 and four. For some reason I have a real problem with the online connection to Biblio Verlag. where do you get their books from? Is anything else out besides those two?
 
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