Two Bavarians.

Hey Spikey,
Seller is Ron Weinand-Expert & Author on 3rd Reich Helmets-Massive collection behind him and decent guy-Not the first time these pickels have been on ebay though!-Alan
 
He has been listing these over and over again for months, nobody bids and he is asking to much.

Ball top Bavarian???, This I think should be spike top?

he bought them as a large group from someone, some of the looked good, some bad, he wanted big money for all of them.

Ask lots of questions first.

James
 
Ball top Bavarian - Aaaaaagh! Of course - what a berk I feel now! I was too busy looking at the liner. I wasent going to bid but... :oops:
 
Go ahead and bid. Bayern Artillery adopted the Kugel helme in 1916.

Look here>> http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/bayern.htm

Scarce helmet. T
 
Tony- forgive me, but I need help with this one, this topic has bugged me for years.

Now I understand they went to the ball top in 1916, but how can you tell the differance between a pre-war helmet and a war years? Or did they just change the top on the exisiting helmet?

I know this sounds stupid, but what makes this one correct? and how can we be sure?

Not second guessing you, I just want to understand as I ahve been looking at this helmet for months as he keeps relisting it, and wondering?

Thanks

James

James
 
James LeBrasseur said:
//but how can you tell the differance between a pre-war helmet and a war years? Or did they just change the top on the exisiting helmet?
Click to expand...
Hi James, I want your avatar. Not the pic, the helmet. 8)

Most spike-top necks have a cone shape under the spike, kinda like a little blunted spike. I don't have a pic handy, perhaps someone else can post one? While with a Kugel, the top of the spike neck is flat as the Kugel usually screws down onto the flat top (did ya note my underlining "most" and "usually"?)

In my experience, I have never seen a ball top that would sit correctly on a spike base. They have to be made that way. So on his Bayern Arty officer, the Kugel screws onto a flat spike neck, so that would have been made that way. It looks very correct to me. Why so many listings? His prices start at nuts and work their way down to reality until they sell. But he is an honest dealer and he has a reputation to live up to, so I would bid if I wanted it. Note as well the flat chinscales though.......
 
Tony-

now that is an answer I can understand, I have never had the luck to hold one of these Bayern artillary helmets.

thanks for the help.

James
 
Joe's two cents worth. Not that anybody cares. Remember what what his face said.

but how can you tell the differance between a pre-war helmet and a war years?
Click to expand...

I think there are at least three things to look at that are anomalies in Bavarian helmets. As usual, I can be all wet. The first is the wappen. There were a couple of different directives, and I am not sure which one is which any more. KMOVBI #21 23 July 1896 reduced the size of the wappen. I don't think this was applicable to all troops un till KMVOBI #17 20 February 1914. My understanding is that the wappen shrank from 13 x 18 cm to 11 x 16 cm. Also to accommodate the smaller size, the Loorbeerzweig (vine) was removed between the legs of the Lions.
Bav%20Gen%20Wappen%20211.jpg

The above wappen has the vine even though it is later than the directive. The wappen below does not have the vine -- look between the Lions legs.
full.jpg

There is also the issue of whether or not, the crowns over the heads of the lions are pierced or not. I think this was simply a matter of cost, not a matter of regulation. I have no proof.

The next issue is chin scales. It was either KME 4149 or KVOBI #7 of February 1914. That made all officers wear rounded chin scales. The problem with Bavarian helmets is that it's not always so easy to tell. With a Prussian helmet, you can easily look at the rosette. An oval rosette is a sure sign of rounded chin scales.
bav%20gen%20cockade%20211.jpg

Is this round or oval?

The third issue is the spike base.
Most spike-top necks have a cone shape under the spike, kinda like a little blunted spike.
Click to expand...
.
Here are two pics look at the top of the spike base Tony as usual is all over it.
off_17.jpg
.
dissasemble.jpg
.

with a Kugel, the top of the spike neck is flat as the Kugel usually screws down onto the flat top (did ya note my underlining "most" and "usually"?)
Click to expand...
.
Many or most do. My Wurttemberg arty helmet has a flattop. However...
off_09.jpg

T_10.jpg
.
full.jpg
.

Also instructive is KMOVBI #17 6 April 1916. This put the ball on top instead of the fluted spike. Now let's put yourself in the place of the dude reading this new regulation. Are you going to throw out the old helmet and buy a completely new one? Will somebody start up a business fitting balls to existing spike bases? Remember the steel helmet came into being in 1916.

So helmet in question... maybe I need a beer.
 
joerookery said:
Joe's two cents worth. Not that anybody cares. //Now let's put yourself in the place of the dude reading this new regulation. Are you going to throw out the old helmet and buy a completely new one?
Click to expand...
I care what you think. You are right, you could, possibly, juuuuust maybe find an original Kugel on top of a stubby spike top which used to hold a spike. And that stepped verion you show is also typical for Arty. The last photo though, is not typical, even though you did find it in a period catalogue. But you must agree, not the norm. What is worth noting in my opinion, is that the helmet Ron has for sale is flat under the Kugel, so it was made as Arty. I think this is a good helmet made for only a very short period. T
 
Ok Tony the helmet was made for a ball top and is a rare helmet IF the helmet plate is origional to the helmet. I would sure check under the plate to be sure that the impression in the shell matches the plate. Bill
 
Hey Joe, the arty ball no the seperate base looks a bit fishy to me, if you will look at the colour of the top of the base, you will see that it is more redish that the rest of the unit. It appears to me that this has had heat applyed to it, possibly to solder in a new threaded reciever.
Gus
 
Kaiser Bill said:
Ok Tony the helmet was made for a ball top and is a rare helmet IF the helmet plate is origional to the helmet. I would sure check under the plate to be sure that the impression in the shell matches the plate. Bill
Click to expand...

Sure, good advice for any purchase. But I'm not the one who is interested Bill. It's James. But other than Bayern, only Württemberg Officers wore that cruciform spike base w/ squared front visor for Arty. Have a look at this little chart I made for quick ref:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/hp/spikes.htm

And as Gus pointed out, perhaps the neck and Kugel have been mated to the base, I was actually thinking last night that this is what I would do if I had to change my helmet to the new 1916 regs, take it in and have the top changed. But, when was this done? In 1916? Or 1976?
 
Gus,

It appears to me that this has had heat applyed to it, possibly to solder in a new threaded reciever.
Click to expand...
.
Maybe this picture will help. This belongs to Amy. But it certainly gives a different view of the threading. If indeed it was a new sleeve on the female side, where in the heck would you get it from?
off_10.jpg
 
The last photo though, is not typical, even though you did find it in a period catalogue. But you must agree, not the norm.
Click to expand...
I agree it is not common. The variations seem to be significant. I will look at this more sometime shortly, but here are two teaser pictures. The first one is the picture from Krinkle on the uncommon spike base.
scanspike2.jpg
.
The next one is a picture from the Mueller sales flyer.
M%FCllersale.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top