US Forage or Visor Cap

[stuart_bates]

Can anyone help me identify this US forage/visor cap. I bought it many years ago via a postal auction but have no details (not sure I ever did but it was acquired locally and was cheap). It, along with a US M1895 Chaplain's Visor cap, are the only foreigners in my collection.

It is stamped inside with "The Armstrong Uniforms, Chicago", has a plain black band and peak and eagle buttons securing the gold braid strap.

Stuart

 

[Lost Skeleton]

Hello Stuart:

I believe this is correctly regarded as a garrison cap, specifically, the Officer's Model Visor Hat. My best estimate is the hat dates from the period 1895 - 1908. With the bullion emblem and gold chincord, your hat was intended to be worn either with the dress blue uniform or blue service coat (sack coat). It's a wonderful piece. Thank you for sharing.

I have a khaki drab version and will post some pictures soon.

Chas.

 

[stuart_bates]

Chas,

thanks for the information and I look forward to seeing your khaki version. BTW: do you have any idea of what mine is worth?

I did think it would be of 1895 vintage as it is not dissimilar to my Chaplain's cap for which I have complete details.

Cheers,

Stuart

 

[Lost Skeleton]

Hi Stuart:

The Chaplain's cap is styled more like a kepi. The crown appears to be sateen. What can you tell me about the cloth? Additionally, would it be possible to see close-ups of the chincord buttons on both caps?

Below is the khaki drab officer's cap I mentioned. I'm very much in the dark regarding when this pattern entered service. The Officer's Cap Device is blackened bronze as are the chinstrap buttons. As you can see, the style and construction are quite similar to your blue model.

In 1912, the Army adopted this style for the Officer's Garrison Cap. In addition to the flared crown, tan leather was adopted for the peak and strap.

As to the value of your cap, I would estimate $350.00 to $450.00. I really like it. Should you ever decide to sell, please keep me in mind. It would be in good company.

Chas.

 

[Gustaf]

Hey Chas,
How much truth is there to the stories of the direction the eagle faces meaning that the ensignia was produced during war time or peace time. If the stories are true, then that could place the date of Stuarts first cap about 1898 (Spanish-American War) as the eagle faces the arrows on his cap.
Best wihses
Gus

 

[stuart_bates]

Hi Chas,

here are a couple of photos of the buttons. The Chaplain's cap is satin I would say for the top and the sides and has a maker's label of The Henderson-Ames Co, Kalamazoo, Mich (love that name).

That drab khaki cap of yours is excellent. What is your main area of collecting?

Stuart

 

[Lost Skeleton]

Hi Gus:

I'm not certain what to make of the "war eagle" theory. Unfortunately, army regulations are rather vague on this subject. The following is the 1897 regulation describing the undress cap.

10. Of dark-blue cloth, the diameter at the top slightly less than at the base, the height 3-1/4 inches all around; the seam around the top without a welt, and neatly stitched on each side. The band 1-1/2 inches wide, with welts projecting 1/8 inch at the top and bottom, the bottom welt 1/8 inch above the base of the cap. The visor of black patent leather, bound with the same, and molded to shape, green underneath, rounded and sloping downward from the horizontal. A rigid stiffening all around to extend from the base of the cap to within 1 inch of the top, and a hair-cloth stiffening throughout the remainder of the sides and top; four black metal eyelets for ventilation; two on each side, placed above the band; a cap cord of gold bullion 1/8 inch in diameter, secured at both ends by small regulation buttons, one on each side, immediately back of the ends of the visor. For general officers, a band of black velvet, and for all other officers, except chaplains, a band of lustrous black mohair braid filling the space between the welts.

The cap badge for all officers will be the coat of arms of the United States, embroidered in gold, modified according to pattern, and will be placed in front so that the top of the badge will be slightly below the top of the cap.

I believe Stuart's Chaplain cap predates 1895 because of the bullion cross device. In 1895, branch of service insignia would have moved from the cap to the standing collar of the sack coat and been replaced by the coat of arms.

Chas.

 

[Lost Skeleton]

What is your main area of collecting?

Hi Stuart:

My interests run eclectic, and I seem to have a little bit of everything. My Model 1912 cap is also Henderson-Ames. Its predecessor is unmarked.

Chas.

 

[stuart_bates]

Chas,

that description exactly fits my Garrison cap. I forgot to say that the inscription on the Chaplain's button is "IN HOC SICNO VINCES" and it has a satin cover with a felt red cross to the front.

It was possibly of the 1st Division 6th Army corps according to the information which accompanied it.

Stuart

 

[joerookery]

It was also during the First World War that a tradition developed in that Colonels would wear the eagle insignia with the head pointing outwards from the neck as if to “face the enemy”. This was in contrast to the Army uniform regulations of the time, which stated that the eagle would be worn on the left collar, with the beak of the eagle facing inwards towards the wearer’s neck. Photographic evidence and service records from the Military Personnel Records Center indicate that this tradition lasted into the Second World War, after which time more strict uniform regulations prevented Colonels from reversing the insignia in this fashion.

http://www.google.com/search?q=war+eagle&hl=en&lr=&rls=GWYE,GWYE:2006-40,GWYE:en&start=50&sa=N

I actually think the "theory" predated WW1.

In 1851, the silver epaulettes for infantry was abolished and all epaulettes became gold. As a result, all colonel insignia of grade became silver. The 1851 regulation included illustrations which show the embroidered eagle on the shoulder strap faced the arrows while the eagle worn on the epaulettes faced the olive branch. Apparently due to the lack of specifications, the direction of the eagle’s head depended upon the manufacturer.

Metal insignia was authorized to be worn on the khaki blouse in 1902. The colonel’s insignia was described as a silver spread eagle. There is no reference as to the direction of the eagle’s head nor are there illustrations. The 1917 uniform specifications and regulations describe the insignia as a metal silver spread eagle, 3/4 inch high and 2 inches between the tips of the wings. It was worn on the shoulder loop, beak to the front, and on the right collar of the shirt with the eagle’s beak to the front. In 1921, the size of the eagle was reduced from 2 inches to 1 1/2 inches between the tips of the wings. The height of the insignia remained unchanged at 3/4 inch.

In 1926, the insignia was made in pairs with the head of the eagle facing to the front when worn. This was the first reference to the insignia being made in pairs. To do this, the eagle’s head was reversed on one insignia – the insignia worn on the right shoulder had the eagle’s head facing the laurel branch. On the left shoulder, the eagle’s head faced the arrows. The insignia with the eagle’s head facing the arrow became known by the term "war eagle".

1951, the insignia was redesigned so that the eagle’s head faced the laurel branch on both the left and right shoulder insignia with the arrows to the rear on both insignia. The so called "war eagle" is no longer authorized for wear on the uniform.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/armyorank/blcolonel.htm

The "theory" was well known in the U.S. Army and I wore antique "war eagles" from 9/11 till retirement contrary to "regulations." How it was applied on these hats is unhknown to me. This probably justs adds more mud to the clarity.

 

[Lost Skeleton]

With respect to earlier cap insignia, I'm inclined to believe the eagle's head faces the wearer's left simply because of the unfurled ribbon bearing the motto e pluribus unum. This ribbon is clutched in the eagle's beak, and since we read left to right, the effect would look unbalanced if the eagle faced the other direction. To better understand this, it is worth looking at the helmet insignia Peter posted here:

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2329

Once the design of the coat of arms was modified to resemble the Great Seal of the United States, the eagle faced dexter and the olive branches indicating America's preference for peace.

The United States Navy was far more specific in regulations regarding their cap emblem. The direction the eagle faced was specified in 1869 and remained unchanged until 1941. When it was modified, it was done so based on heraldic tradition in which left is sinister and right is dexter. This also enabled the eagle to face one's sword arm.

Chas.

 

[Gustaf]

Thanks Chas and Joe for very good answers to my question. There is definite truth to the war eagle stories, but because of people like Joe who went against regulations, there is no well defined box to but things in, the real irony is that Joe is the one who likes the boxes. Some very nice examples of non pointy head gear.
Bes twihses
Gus

 

[joerookery]

The direction the eagle faced was specified in 1869 and remained unchanged until 1941.

Which way?

 

[zipperheads9]

Lottsa info and good pic's . I am learning alot of American headgear .
Mark

 

[Lost Skeleton]

Which way?

The eagle faced right (the wearer's left) in the same direction as Stuart's cap.

Chas.

 

[stuart_bates]

I have been told that the Chaplain's cap is Masonic and not Military. Anyone care to comment?

BTW: the discussion on the eagle badge etc. has been fascinating to say the least.

Stuart

 

[Gustaf]

I have been told that the Chaplain's cap is Masonic and not Military. Anyone care to comment?

BTW: the discussion on the eagle badge etc. has been fascinating to say the least.

Stuart

Hey Stuart,
Yes, the buttons on the chaplin's cap are Masonic, go to google images and type in masonic cross crown, and you will get several pricture of the same emblem that is on you buttons.
Bes twishes
Gus

 

[usa1918]

Chas,

thanks for the information and I look forward to seeing your khaki version. BTW: do you have any idea of what mine is worth?

I did think it would be of 1895 vintage as it is not dissimilar to my Chaplain's cap for which I have complete details.

Cheers,

Stuart

Sturat

Actually the chaplain's hat is a Knight's of Columbus uniform hat. They were often made by the same manufacturers of the period military hats. Your officers bell crown (blue) hat is from the early 1890's to 1908 when the WWI type (mdl 1910) visored hat was introduced. I have not seen an example of the olive wool version of the bell crown cap before. Very nice.

Hopefully I have posted this right, brian just sent me the authorization to join

Keith
Keith

 

[vrb]

I found this site by "googling" the manufacturer of a cap I have. It came from someone on my mother's side of the family. If I have more specific date information, I can probably figure out whose it was, since we have a pretty good genealogy. (5th g-grandfather was one of the Sons of Liberty.)

Similar to some of the others here, but not identical. The buttons say "AD ASTRA PER ASPERA" "KNG"

My mother's family lived in Mankato, Kansas, so I assume that the KNG is for Kansas National Guard. Inside the band were some scraps of newspaper--most likely the Jewell County Register. No dated pages but a scrap of an article that mentions 1914.