Wachtmeister pelzmütze

G

garder

New member
Hi

I am having problems with this pelzmütze for a Wachtmeister in the 16. Husaren regiment.

I have been looking in my books but there are no mentioning of wachtmeisters pelzmütze made of bearskin, or with officer capline. Only that they were allowed to wear officer's fieldsign.

My qustion is:
Was Wachtmeisters pelzmütze's made of bearskin?

Is this the correct capline for a Wachtmeisters pelzmütze?

Kind regards
Søren

pelzmtze4.jpg
 
There were many kinds of skins used by Unteroffiziere, especially the rare rank of Wachtmeister.

The sort of lining in your Pelzmütze is certainly possible, I have a 2.Leibhusaren Rgt. Wachtmeister Pelzmütze with a completely silk lining, also in (faded) white. The Fangschnur is the correct one for Wachtmeister in silk and white and black cotton.

BUT: the Vaterlandbandeau doesn't seem correct to me, should be the wavy pattern, this is, if I am not mistaking, only for 1. and 2. Leibhusaren Rgt. as it should follow the top of the skull-frontplate.

Perhaps other members can tell something more or correct me?

Johan
 
I don´t know what the Vaterlandbandeau is made of. I don´t owne this mütze. It is on german ebay and I was thinking on bidding on it. Perhaps this is the wrong forum for it.

I had not seen that the Vaterlandbandeau is "wrong". I have never seen this style of bandeau for any other pelzmütze than from 1 and 2 Leib husaren.

Does anyone have pictures of wachtmeisters with non-regulation/unusual pelzmütze?
 
A few more pictures from the seller.

It dosen´t look like the pelzmütze has ever had a "wave" Vaterlandbandeau. The curved bandeau looks original to the mütze. Weird...

pelz5.jpg


pelz7.jpg
 
I know very little about these kinds of hats. I do not have one. However I do have several catalogs and in these you can see what was for sale. I would go away from thinking about a wachtmeister hat and think more about what is private purchase and what is issue. Most people of that rank might buy a private purchase job especially if you read about this position in “life in a garrison town”.

For private purchase I have seen in these catalogs otter, possum, bearskin. There is also this interesting little snippet that might be even more interesting. I quickly looked into catalogs and bearskin was targeted towards the 17 Husar.


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These catalog pages come from a book that is still in print.
book1cov.jpg



http://www.authorhouse.com/Bookstore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=38699
 
Thanks a lot. I will buy this book.

Funny/interesting to see that bear fur was much cheaper than otter fur. I would have thought it would have been the other way around.
 
The thing that struck me most is that there are no less than six different levels of good to go for these private purchase helmets. You had to choose which level of good you wanted to buy. This holds true across the board including helmets with spikes on them. However, there are seldom so many levels. Three yes–six is very unusual.

This goes into metal helmets as well as leather helmets. All of this seems to be private purchase–there are other catalogs that seem to cater to the issue crowd–as well as selling many repair parts of many different kinds of helmets. I think these catalogs are great as a resource for what was available.
 
There is a little study on enamel and fitness levels here:

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Runninghorse.htm
 
Why do you think it's a Pelzmütze for a Wachtmeister? I see a Fangschnur, Feldzeigen and Kokarde for an Offizier...
Since it's a private purchase item, I think it's possible that the bandeau is the "wrong" one. When it's originally installed, I see no problem. I have more than one helmet which are not completely according to the regulations, but nevertheless completely original...

Adler
 
The main reason I think it is for a wachtmeister is because the seller said so in the ebay add :) Not a very good reason I am affraid...

Who do you think it could have been for? A fähnriche or a one-year-volunteer? Could an officer have a black pelzmütze? I would very much like to hear your opinion.

Interesting to hear that private purchase items could be different than regulation.
 
I thought so too.

I had always thought that only very senior NCO´s like wachtmaister´s were allowed to wear a pelzmütze made off bearskin. I am beginnig to think that I am wrong, and that also lowerranking hussars were allowed to buy them.
 
garder said:
I thought so too. I had always thought that only very senior NCO´s like wachtmaister´s were allowed to wear a pelzmütze made off bearskin. I am beginnig to think that I am wrong.
Click to expand...

Well hang on, you asked about officers. Officer all wore thick brown otter fur until 1912 when the covering was replaced by grey opossum fur. The only exception is Husaren Regt Nr 17 from Braunschweig, where all officers wore black bear fur Pelzmützen. That was the tradition.

Examining period photos of Husar (Pte) and NCOs of all regiments wearing Eigentum Pelzmützen you can often clearly see that they are very fuzzy (don't know how else to describe it) but they are absolutely not tight short sealskin. So perhaps they were bear? If not, what were they?
 
Thanks Tony... That answered my qustion perfectly :)

That privates and NCO´s wear fuzzy (that is a good word to describe it)busbys in photos is very interesting to hear.

I have another qustion: Did a wachtmeister wear a NCO fangschnur or an officer fangschnur?
 
Thanks a lot!!!

Just what I was looking fore :)

Am I correct in thinking that a Fahnriche and a Fahnenjunker are some kind of officer candidate?

Also interesting to see that one dealer would make busby´s to all the different regiments stationed all over Germany. I would have thought that one or two dealers in each garrison city would keep the local regiment supplyed with private purchase busby´s.
 
Am I correct in thinking that a Fahnriche and a Fahnenjunker are some kind of officer candidate?
Click to expand...

Yes indeed–I would of course recommend the other book in addition to the catalog if you want to understand what that is all about. It is certainly not a straight line. Also explained are the old rank names such as Aspirant.


http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=60521

It is cheap.
 
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