Weird tip Schleswig-Holstein officer 1848

CLOVIS 57 said:
Hello GardeUlan,
Honestly, not 100% sure but :
---It should be noted that, as a general rule, the ‘Länder’ which adopted the spiked helmet before 1867, adopted the Prussian regulatory “standard” in terms of fittings and construction, as well as the difference in quality, between a ‘Kammer’ helmet and an officer's Extra-Helm.
---Helmut is not a benchmark of expertise. Here, his Hanover M49 has all the appearance of an enlisted Dragon. The perlring is ‘troop’, the point is “troop”, the headdress is ‘troop’ quality, the Landkokarde is troop, etc...
The same ‘troop-officer’ distinction can be found on the spiked helmets of foreign countries such as Sweden or South America...

For comparison, here is a 0fficer quality on an old model:

View attachment 62914

Best regards
Clovis.
Click to expand...

Weitze might not be a top benchmark.

But what about DHM in Berlin?

www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de

Helm Modell 1846 für Offiziere, Garde-Regiment, Hannover

www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de

www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de

Helm Modell 1849 für Offiziere der Dragoner, Hannover

www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de

Best wishes,

GardeUlan
 
CLOVIS 57 said:
Hello GardeUlan,
Honestly, not 100% sure but :
---It should be noted that, as a general rule, the ‘Länder’ which adopted the spiked helmet before 1867, adopted the Prussian regulatory “standard” in terms of fittings and construction, as well as the difference in quality, between a ‘Kammer’ helmet and an officer's Extra-Helm.
---Helmut is not a benchmark of expertise. Here, his Hanover M49 has all the appearance of an enlisted Dragon. The perlring is ‘troop’, the point is “troop”, the headdress is ‘troop’ quality, the Landkokarde is troop, etc...
The same ‘troop-officer’ distinction can be found on the spiked helmets of foreign countries such as Sweden or South America...

For comparison, here is a 0fficer quality on an old model:

View attachment 62914

Best regards
Clovis.
Click to expand...
Allow me to offer my humble opinion:
The Kingdom of Hanover adopted the pickelhaube in 1849, but with different characteristics from the Prussian pickelhaube and with unique features that differ from the regulations of the Kingdom of Prussia.
The construction features are also different.
The nail has a different shape, and the beading at the base of the nail is the same on trooper and officer helmets (you will never find pearling like the Prussian officer's).
The fixing screws at the base are always round, not star-shaped.
Compared to trooper helmets, officer helmets have a more refined interior, and the tongues are usually trapezoidal in shape.
The cockades are very similar, often made of printed leather and painted in the colors of the kingdom.
From the photos, I believe the example for sale on the HW website is a trooper helmet, not an officer's; the leather interior has rounded tongues.
In 1866, after the annexation to the Kingdom of Prussia, the helmet became the Prussian one and the Hanoverian traditions were lost for a few decades.
From my collection these three old officer's comrades.
Zeb.
Hannover (4).jpg
 
Thank you Zeb, for clarifying things for me. It is true that I am ignorant of pre-1860 hairstyles in Germanic countries other than Prussia. 😇However, as far as Schleswig is concerned... :unsure: M48 Schleswig 0ff.png
 
This one is a correct Schleswig-Holstein M1849 for officer. In this case the spike is typically Prussian style with officer's pearling and the cruciform base is secured with star-head screws.
Zeb
 
Zebedeus said:
This one is a correct Schleswig-Holstein M1849 for officer. In this case the spike is typically Prussian style with officer's pearling and the cruciform base is secured with star-head screws.
Zeb
Click to expand...

Please forgive me to be drop in here again.

It would be great to have a reference for that. Did the Holstein army really take over the Prussian model?

The Holstein officer helmet you refer to is from Masa’s homepage and it‘s the only Holstein officer helmet with Prussian style officer‘s pearlring and star-headed screws, I‘ve seen so far. The others which we’re supposed to be Holstein officers had a more Hanover or Mecklenburg style pearling. Sometimes with round screws sometimes with star-headed screws. Here are some examples.

www.museen-sh.de

Pickelhaube

Helm für Infanterieoffiziere Schleswig-Holstein. Schwarzlackierter Lederhelm mit Messingbeschlägen: Spitze in Pickelform mit Lüftungslöchern, "Kleeblatt" mit Sternschrauben, Augenschirmschiene, Rückenschiene, Helmbeschlag in Form des deutschen (doppelköpfigen) Bundesadlers mit aufgelegtem...
www.museen-sh.de www.museen-sh.de

Der erste Krieg um das Herzogtum Schleswig und die Folgen

Revolution, Bürgerkrieg und weiter verschärfte nationale Konflikte.
www.grenzgenial.dk www.grenzgenial.dk


Maybe some other collectors have additional pictures?

Thank you very much.

Best wishes

GardeUlan
 
GardeUlan said:
Please forgive me to be drop in here again.

It would be great to have a reference for that. Did the Holstein army really take over the Prussian model?

The Holstein officer helmet you refer to is from Masa’s homepage and it‘s the only Holstein officer helmet with Prussian style officer‘s pearlring and star-headed screws, I‘ve seen so far. The others which we’re supposed to be Holstein officers had a more Hanover or Mecklenburg style pearling. Sometimes with round screws sometimes with star-headed screws. Here are some examples.

www.museen-sh.de

Pickelhaube

Helm für Infanterieoffiziere Schleswig-Holstein. Schwarzlackierter Lederhelm mit Messingbeschlägen: Spitze in Pickelform mit Lüftungslöchern, "Kleeblatt" mit Sternschrauben, Augenschirmschiene, Rückenschiene, Helmbeschlag in Form des deutschen (doppelköpfigen) Bundesadlers mit aufgelegtem...
www.museen-sh.de www.museen-sh.de

Der erste Krieg um das Herzogtum Schleswig und die Folgen

Revolution, Bürgerkrieg und weiter verschärfte nationale Konflikte.
www.grenzgenial.dk www.grenzgenial.dk


Maybe some other collectors have additional pictures?

Thank you very much.

Best wishes

GardeUlan
Click to expand...
Dear Garde Ulan, you are right.
It is incorrect to say that the Schleswig Holstein army adopted the Prussian model.
I find that the shape of the spike and its base in the Schleswig Holstein helmet is much more similar (not identical) to the Prussian model than to the Hanoverian model.
However, I wrote an inaccuracy earlier:
I reread some texts, including volume 1 "Casque a Pointe" by Jean-Louis Larcade (p. 100), and indeed it states that the nail of the Schleswig Holstein Model 1848 does not have the typical pearling at the base.
However, there are photos of examples that do have it.
As you yourself wrote, some examples have a star-shaped head while others have a round head.
I can't tell you why. Have they been tampered with over time? Or are they the product of the whim of some officers of the period?
Perhaps some knowledgeable collector or scholar can shed some light on this?
Zeb
 
Thank you, gentlemen, and well done for your very interesting contributions. I note that for the ‘Prussians’ M95 or M15, we have the A.K.0. for information... which is not the case for the old models of the small States.
 
Zebedeus said:
Dear Garde Ulan, you are right.
It is incorrect to say that the Schleswig Holstein army adopted the Prussian model.
I find that the shape of the spike and its base in the Schleswig Holstein helmet is much more similar (not identical) to the Prussian model than to the Hanoverian model.
However, I wrote an inaccuracy earlier:
I reread some texts, including volume 1 "Casque a Pointe" by Jean-Louis Larcade (p. 100), and indeed it states that the nail of the Schleswig Holstein Model 1848 does not have the typical pearling at the base.
However, there are photos of examples that do have it.
As you yourself wrote, some examples have a star-shaped head while others have a round head.
I can't tell you why. Have they been tampered with over time? Or are they the product of the whim of some officers of the period?
Perhaps some knowledgeable collector or scholar can shed some light on this?
Zeb
Click to expand...
Dear Zeb, Dear Clovis 57, Thank you very much for your replys. It‘s not easy when it comes to these old models especially when it concerns the little German states. Sometimes you can find some references in books, but often with limited information. As Clovis 57 rightly said no A.K.O. 😟

Congratulations Zeb to your three Hanover helmets! I like them a lot! I only have one which is the model on the left of your picture.

Best wishes,

GardeUlan
 

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GardeUlan said:
Dear Zeb, Dear Clovis 57, Thank you very much for your replys. It‘s not easy when it comes to these old models especially when it concerns the little German states. Sometimes you can find some references in books, but often with limited information. As Clovis 57 rightly said no A.K.O. 😟

Congratulations Zeb to your three Hanover helmets! I like them a lot! I only have one which is the model on the left of your picture.

Best wishes,

GardeUlan
Click to expand...
Congratulations, it's a beauty. A stunning Helm M1849 of the Hannoverian Leib Infanterie Regiment.
 
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