Württemberg spikehelmet metal
- Thread starter Jupiter66
- Start date
Correct, Pierrick. There were special cockades with backing for Bing and related helmets. Not many have survived !
Sorry, Brian, I had not seen your comment. For once, I must disagree.... cockades with backing were originally worn on these helmets. These are seldom seen nowadays though.
I do believe there's a wurttemberg cockade with the notch in it available right now, I can PM you the link if it interests you.
Well that is a new one for me! I have never seen a felt backed kokarde before, never knew they existed.
It does make total sense though, to protect the outside finish on these kit helmets. My von der Heyden has the V notch kokarden but no felt.
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USMC-EOD
Active member
I'll be darned!
I've seen these cockades on the loose for decades, and I never once noticed one with a felt cushion!
Learning something new every day...
I wonder if the green over-painted, later versions of this helmet did away with the felt cushion disc's?
I know the later version went with steel spikes and did away with much of the other brass, deleting the rear spine and visor trim.
Anybody know?
I've seen these cockades on the loose for decades, and I never once noticed one with a felt cushion!
Learning something new every day...
I wonder if the green over-painted, later versions of this helmet did away with the felt cushion disc's?
I know the later version went with steel spikes and did away with much of the other brass, deleting the rear spine and visor trim.
Anybody know?
pppara
Active member
IMO, strictky speaking weissenburger, bing helmets aren't ersatz helmets. Their finish is neat, the care taken in the manufacturing is great. Their garniture aren't in iron.
coert65
Well-known member
Correct. Bing helmets are also the only ones ordered by the German army, in 1914. All others are indeed ersatz.
Regards, Coert.
pppara
Active member
Yes, this is the case for weissenburger helmets too. The patent was registered in october 14.
USMC-EOD
Active member
Thank you, pppara.
You seem to have collected a lot of info on this type of helmet. That picture of the cockade was great! Thank you for posting that.
I am not sure I am following the answers you just gave to Brian concerning Bing and Weissenburger helmets. My ignorance on this particular subject will likely show, so I appreciate your patience.
I am extremely interested in this type of ersatz, and I truly do appreciate your insight!
I have seen the Bing helmets, but I have never owned one (at least not yet!). Are you saying that these types of "kit" helmets are made by a company called Weissenburger?
If this is correct, then below are my two Weissenburger helmets. They are a little beat up, but I have always purchased what I could afford...
The black painted one is like the helmet that started this thread. The only difference is the wappen, which is held in place in the normal fashion with a single wooden peg. I think these are earlier manufacture.
The other Weissenburger helmet over sprayed in green is the one I was asking about whether or not the felt padding may have been used as cockade backing. I think these were made later.
I know that a lot of shortcuts were used on these later versions, such as use of steel for making the spike (pictured, with an extra steel spike showing interior). The perforated holes in the crown were changed up as well on these later helmets.
The holes for attaching the rear spine were no longer punched through the crown, and a new attaching method for the wappen was incorporated at some point.
A screw going through the center of the wappen to hold it onto the crown replaced the wooden peg and slot of the earlier type.
The shiny black paint was still used, but I think it became more of a primer from the factory for the final green coat. I say this, because the later all-steel spikes produced by this firm also received a coat of the black paint that had originally only been used on the helmet body.
The only brass parts I have found on these later manufactured helmets are the two M91 side posts, and the wappen.
The newer style brass wappen used on the green helmet is not only attached differently, it is also made from EXTREMELY thin brass, unlike the earlier wappen used on the black helmet which seems to be of normal, early war thickness.
All other brass parts have been eliminated such as the front brim trim, the spine is completely gone, and the spike is now steel.
Otherwise, they are identical.
Do you believe the cockades used the felt on the later helmets?
I have wondered also if the padding up under the liner was used on these later helmets as well?
I appreciate your input!
Bryan.
You seem to have collected a lot of info on this type of helmet. That picture of the cockade was great! Thank you for posting that.
I am not sure I am following the answers you just gave to Brian concerning Bing and Weissenburger helmets. My ignorance on this particular subject will likely show, so I appreciate your patience.
I am extremely interested in this type of ersatz, and I truly do appreciate your insight!
I have seen the Bing helmets, but I have never owned one (at least not yet!). Are you saying that these types of "kit" helmets are made by a company called Weissenburger?
If this is correct, then below are my two Weissenburger helmets. They are a little beat up, but I have always purchased what I could afford...
The black painted one is like the helmet that started this thread. The only difference is the wappen, which is held in place in the normal fashion with a single wooden peg. I think these are earlier manufacture.
The other Weissenburger helmet over sprayed in green is the one I was asking about whether or not the felt padding may have been used as cockade backing. I think these were made later.
I know that a lot of shortcuts were used on these later versions, such as use of steel for making the spike (pictured, with an extra steel spike showing interior). The perforated holes in the crown were changed up as well on these later helmets.
The holes for attaching the rear spine were no longer punched through the crown, and a new attaching method for the wappen was incorporated at some point.
A screw going through the center of the wappen to hold it onto the crown replaced the wooden peg and slot of the earlier type.
The shiny black paint was still used, but I think it became more of a primer from the factory for the final green coat. I say this, because the later all-steel spikes produced by this firm also received a coat of the black paint that had originally only been used on the helmet body.
The only brass parts I have found on these later manufactured helmets are the two M91 side posts, and the wappen.
The newer style brass wappen used on the green helmet is not only attached differently, it is also made from EXTREMELY thin brass, unlike the earlier wappen used on the black helmet which seems to be of normal, early war thickness.
All other brass parts have been eliminated such as the front brim trim, the spine is completely gone, and the spike is now steel.
Otherwise, they are identical.
Do you believe the cockades used the felt on the later helmets?
I have wondered also if the padding up under the liner was used on these later helmets as well?
I appreciate your input!
Bryan.
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pppara
Active member
hi bryan !
Thanks a lot, but i'm clearly not a specialist. Lot of contributors to this forum have more knowledge on the subject of pickelhaube than me.
My concern is more 1895 helmets.
these helmets (bings and WEISENBURGER/VON DER HEYTEN) have specific chinstraps with rivets.
Specific cockades as said. IMO Felt is present at the beginning of the conflict.
there is snap buttons to close the liner for the first production....
sorry , but i haven't the time to be more accurate today.
I hope i answered to a few of your questions.
Thanks a lot, but i'm clearly not a specialist. Lot of contributors to this forum have more knowledge on the subject of pickelhaube than me.
My concern is more 1895 helmets.
Bing had a deal with the bavarian army, Weissenburger-Von der Heyden with the german army. As you know, bavarian army (bavarian kingdom too) keep a sort of independance in the pre1914 german empire. As i said, but sorry for poor english, these two types of helmet cannot really be called ersatz helmets. these two manufacturers have a contract with the army. During the war others manufacturers have been requested to take part to the war effort. This given rise to numerous types of variants.
these helmets (bings and WEISENBURGER/VON DER HEYTEN) have specific chinstraps with rivets.
Specific cockades as said. IMO Felt is present at the beginning of the conflict.
there is snap buttons to close the liner for the first production....
sorry , but i haven't the time to be more accurate today.
I hope i answered to a few of your questions.
USMC-EOD
Active member
Thank you pppara.
That does answer my questions! I appreciate you getting back to me.
I was curious about the snap button in the liners as well concerning these helmets. I was certain I had seen one or two over the years that did not have them.
Those without them, per your post, must have been later models.
I find these Weissenburger/Von Der Heyten helmets to be some of the most interesting and attractive enlisted helmets of this period. The very pinnacle of industry and style for this time frame.
Bryan.
That does answer my questions! I appreciate you getting back to me.
I was curious about the snap button in the liners as well concerning these helmets. I was certain I had seen one or two over the years that did not have them.
Those without them, per your post, must have been later models.
I find these Weissenburger/Von Der Heyten helmets to be some of the most interesting and attractive enlisted helmets of this period. The very pinnacle of industry and style for this time frame.
Bryan.
USMC-EOD
Active member
Thanks pppara!
Those are indeed the snaps I normally see on these! And those two examples are nice.
I believe the ones I have seen them missing on were the green oversprayed versions.
Do you think they got rid of the snaps the way they got rid of other parts on the later versions?
Bryan.
Those are indeed the snaps I normally see on these! And those two examples are nice.
I believe the ones I have seen them missing on were the green oversprayed versions.
Do you think they got rid of the snaps the way they got rid of other parts on the later versions?
Bryan.