Ww1 German all steel lance Lieb Hussar Regt
- Thread starter Shinyblades
- Start date
Shinyblades
Member
Hi j j. Checked but no other markingsSince I've had no reply to the request of additional markings on the lance, I'm assuming there are none.
As mentioned, it should be one piece
I wouldn't touch it or the Pennant after a closer look at the sewn holes for attachment.
Coolest thing is how someone made the wrist strap, that is well done.
We are being blinded thinking that the lance and pennant are a set. There is nothing wrong with that lance. It’s been cut in half and threaded to join together. This is perfectly acceptable for those of us who have tried to ship a 3+ meter lance. The LHR 1 stamps are correct and a pleasure to see.
Have to agree with Tony, I think the lance is good! He is right on shipping, I bought one years ago, an Argentina marked one, and went through months of getting somebody to take it in shipment...
James
John Josef
Well-known member
I don't claim to be an expert, but I've seen at least five of these over the years and all had factory stamps.
Also, everyone single one had a date stamp, as well as the ruling monarchs initial stamped at the base of the tip of the lance point just like 99.9% of all weapons when issued.
I've never seen one that was made in two pieces, or I'd have bought everyone I've ever seen, I guess someone could have done that, but I have my doubts. Everyone would do it so they could be shipped, to me it looks factory, but I could be wrong.
Or maybe they were manufacture stamped when exported to Argentina??
My doubts about the pennant come from the stitching around the wholes which was always hand done. I'd like to see a better picture of that and then I may change my mind.
Also, the skulls were always made of a separate piece of material and then sewn on. The teeth also look totally different on the originals I've seen. On this one you can clearly see the skull is printed on.
Maybe after the war started, they printed the skulls directly on the pennant??
Who knows but these are all questions that I take into consideration when asked for an opinion or comments.
I certainly don't think my opinion is any better or important than anyone else's and I'll admit to being extremely careful in this day of mass reproductions. I always trust but verify, and I'm always hoping for the best.
It's always better to be safe than sorry. The more questions you ask now the less likely you are to be sorry later.
I hope its 100% Original.
Also, everyone single one had a date stamp, as well as the ruling monarchs initial stamped at the base of the tip of the lance point just like 99.9% of all weapons when issued.
I've never seen one that was made in two pieces, or I'd have bought everyone I've ever seen, I guess someone could have done that, but I have my doubts. Everyone would do it so they could be shipped, to me it looks factory, but I could be wrong.
Or maybe they were manufacture stamped when exported to Argentina??
My doubts about the pennant come from the stitching around the wholes which was always hand done. I'd like to see a better picture of that and then I may change my mind.
Also, the skulls were always made of a separate piece of material and then sewn on. The teeth also look totally different on the originals I've seen. On this one you can clearly see the skull is printed on.
Maybe after the war started, they printed the skulls directly on the pennant??
Who knows but these are all questions that I take into consideration when asked for an opinion or comments.
I certainly don't think my opinion is any better or important than anyone else's and I'll admit to being extremely careful in this day of mass reproductions. I always trust but verify, and I'm always hoping for the best.
It's always better to be safe than sorry. The more questions you ask now the less likely you are to be sorry later.
I hope its 100% Original.
Shinyblades
Member
Hi j j thanks a lot for your input , I will take some photos of stitching , I to am no expert of German lances but the whole thing shouts original to me as I have been collecting , handling edged weapons for 56 years , as you say I would have expected like my German ww1 bayonets to have the monarch and year date , but none are present , just the regimental marks .I don't claim to be an expert, but I've seen at least five of these over the years and all had factory stamps.
Also, everyone single one had a date stamp, as well as the ruling monarchs initial stamped at the base of the tip of the lance point just like 99.9% of all weapons when issued.
I've never seen one that was made in two pieces, or I'd have bought everyone I've ever seen, I guess someone could have done that, but I have my doubts. Everyone would do it so they could be shipped, to me it looks factory, but I could be wrong.
Or maybe they were manufacture stamped when exported to Argentina??
My doubts about the pennant come from the stitching around the wholes which was always hand done. I'd like to see a better picture of that and then I may change my mind.
Also, the skulls were always made of a separate piece of material and then sewn on. The teeth also look totally different on the originals I've seen. On this one you can clearly see the skull is printed on.
Maybe after the war started, they printed the skulls directly on the pennant??
Who knows but these are all questions that I take into consideration when asked for an opinion or comments.
I certainly don't think my opinion is any better or important than anyone else's and I'll admit to being extremely careful in this day of mass reproductions. I always trust but verify, and I'm always hoping for the best.
It's always better to be safe than sorry. The more questions you ask now the less likely you are to be sorry later.
I hope its 100% Original.
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Pontrest
Active member
Hello all. Just some thoughts from a guy who has spent four decades in the service of his country's armed forces, and who collects WW1 and WW2 artifacts, with a focus on the WW1 German metalhelm (Kurassier and Jaeger zu Pferde).
1. Soldiers are ingenious at uniform and equipment modification. They will take equipment that is issued to them and modify it to be more comfortable, adaptable, or easy to use. They use what they have on hand to make these modifications, so you may end up with other equipment being used in ways that they were never meant to be used. You may also find personal items or equipment being used in a way that it was not meant to be used.
2. Unit marking of equipment was standard prior to 1916, but post-1916 was not as prevalent, from a battlefield intelligence perspective; it's really easy to determine what unit/s you are facing if you have equipment that tells you what unit/s they are from.
3. This equipment appears to have been cared for by someone who thought it should be taken care of/preserved. The bayonets and troddels as well as the lance and pennant look like they are in good condition. I'm not sure I'd be as concerned that the pennant currently with the lance is from the 2nd leib hussaren, whereas the lance itself is marked to the first regiment for the following reason: it has been one hundred and eleven years since the start of hostilities, and one hundred seven years since the end of the conflict. Since then, an entire century of history has occurred. Whomever owned this equipment may have decided at some point that it was easier to transport or ship the lance with it in two pieces, and had it cut and professionally threaded. The cut and thread could also be a wartime modification, also for transportation or shipping issues.
4. As a collector and seeker of complete, authentic items, I am no longer shocked or surprised at what families of veterans or others have done to military items, mostly German, in the years since the world wars. I've seen helmets repainted and taken apart, bayonets taken apart and attempts made to sharpen them with what appears to be a hand grinder (based on grind marks). I say this, because these items don't show any signs of this kind of tampering.
I am not an expert, I just know how to make issue equipment work for me, if it's original configuration is not optimal. Example: On my first deployment to Iraq in 2004, our individual body armor covered all pockets on our uniform blouses, so we could not access them while wearing the body armor. After observing some special operations Soldiers with pockets on their sleeves, we removed the lower pockets on our blouses and took them to a seamstress, who sewed them onto our sleeves for us. They worked great for us. Also, the M-16 fixed stock was too long to effectively use with our body armor, so I purchased a telescoping buttstock and had it mounted onto my M-16 by my unit armorer (I could have done it, but he said it needed to be done by a unit armorer in order to avoid trouble). Problem solved; was able to use the weapon effectively. You will find neither item in the official Army record, but they were field modifications that solved problems. Germany in WW1 was met with all kinds of materiel shortages, so nothing would surprise me.
I enjoy reading the comments from all the qualified experts, and appreciate the expertise everyone brings to the discussion.
Thank you all.
Regards,
Tim
1. Soldiers are ingenious at uniform and equipment modification. They will take equipment that is issued to them and modify it to be more comfortable, adaptable, or easy to use. They use what they have on hand to make these modifications, so you may end up with other equipment being used in ways that they were never meant to be used. You may also find personal items or equipment being used in a way that it was not meant to be used.
2. Unit marking of equipment was standard prior to 1916, but post-1916 was not as prevalent, from a battlefield intelligence perspective; it's really easy to determine what unit/s you are facing if you have equipment that tells you what unit/s they are from.
3. This equipment appears to have been cared for by someone who thought it should be taken care of/preserved. The bayonets and troddels as well as the lance and pennant look like they are in good condition. I'm not sure I'd be as concerned that the pennant currently with the lance is from the 2nd leib hussaren, whereas the lance itself is marked to the first regiment for the following reason: it has been one hundred and eleven years since the start of hostilities, and one hundred seven years since the end of the conflict. Since then, an entire century of history has occurred. Whomever owned this equipment may have decided at some point that it was easier to transport or ship the lance with it in two pieces, and had it cut and professionally threaded. The cut and thread could also be a wartime modification, also for transportation or shipping issues.
4. As a collector and seeker of complete, authentic items, I am no longer shocked or surprised at what families of veterans or others have done to military items, mostly German, in the years since the world wars. I've seen helmets repainted and taken apart, bayonets taken apart and attempts made to sharpen them with what appears to be a hand grinder (based on grind marks). I say this, because these items don't show any signs of this kind of tampering.
I am not an expert, I just know how to make issue equipment work for me, if it's original configuration is not optimal. Example: On my first deployment to Iraq in 2004, our individual body armor covered all pockets on our uniform blouses, so we could not access them while wearing the body armor. After observing some special operations Soldiers with pockets on their sleeves, we removed the lower pockets on our blouses and took them to a seamstress, who sewed them onto our sleeves for us. They worked great for us. Also, the M-16 fixed stock was too long to effectively use with our body armor, so I purchased a telescoping buttstock and had it mounted onto my M-16 by my unit armorer (I could have done it, but he said it needed to be done by a unit armorer in order to avoid trouble). Problem solved; was able to use the weapon effectively. You will find neither item in the official Army record, but they were field modifications that solved problems. Germany in WW1 was met with all kinds of materiel shortages, so nothing would surprise me.
I enjoy reading the comments from all the qualified experts, and appreciate the expertise everyone brings to the discussion.
Thank you all.
Regards,
Tim
Peter B
Well-known member
Great points and thank you for your service.
John Josef
Well-known member
My pleasure, just trying to help. I feel the same about the lack of markings if you take your 56 years and add my 50 to it that says a lot. Germans at the time marked just about everything specially weapons.
I actually dug out the reference book to add a bit more specific information for you.
Really do like the hemp covered section which is 100% correct for lances made after 1893.
The length for the tubular steel lance should be 320cm or 10 foot 4.9 inches and should weight 1990g or 4.38 pounds.
Also here is a photo so everyone can see what I'm talking about with regards to questions about the pennant's construction and look.
You can never have enough information when making a new purchase.
Like I said I'm not nor do I consider myself the final word on anything especially Lances and pennants.
All the best John Josef
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Shinyblades
Member
Hi j j
Yes the lance is 10’ - 5 1/2” long .
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
I yield to Tony on the lance
but he did not say anything about the flag
Tony, what do you think of the flag ?
I have my doubts
Thanks
Steve
When I have doubts I keep mouth shut.
Trust me, that takes a lot of effort.
KAGGR#1
Well-known member
I sort of figured that
Steve
