Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Fur headdress worn by the light calvalry.

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Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:50 pm

This is the one Pelzmutze I have in my collection. I got the LGH fangschnur separately and I'd be shocked if it is not a repro. But it was cheap and makes a nice placeholder until I can get the real thing. :) Hope everyone has a great weekend!
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:54 pm

On top (under the Kolpak) are LGHR stamps and 14 which I assume is the year. The Kolpak is also stamped.
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by b.loree » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:36 pm

Obviously, an amazing piece of History with incredible markings which totally confirm authenticity! I can not comment on the fangschnur as I have never had one in the collection. Perhaps Steve McF can help out. Those markings also need to be placed in our data bank for future generations of collectors who will carry on with the preservation of these Historical objects. My opinion only but I think that we all collect for that purpose.
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by stuka f » Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:03 am

Love the presentation!
Can't comment on authenticity, but I like it never the less.
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by 911car » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:01 am

Thank you for showing this great item. Busbies are seldom seen here, let alone nice ones (not sure about the special Fangschnur without seeing it in the flesh; if a regular one looked like this, kind of fluffy, I would say it is for sure a copy; were some LGHR cords made of this material?...).
The only surprise is that the chinscales are for an officer. Did the busby come like this?
It should ne nice, too, to see pictures of the inside.

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by b.loree » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:41 am

Having looked more closely at your photos I would venture an opinion that the looped cord part of this parade ensemble is original. It looks the same as the one on my Saxe HR 20 OR’s busby. The parade part of this...woven paddles and tassels looks different and I don’t believe that it is original. My opinion only, we really need members who have original examples to comment here.
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by 911car » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:24 am

b.loree wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:41 am
Having looked more closely at your photos I would venture an opinion that the looped cord part of this parade ensemble is original. It looks the same as the one on my Saxe HR 20 OR’s busby. The parade part of this...woven paddles and tassels looks different and I don’t believe that it is original. My opinion only, we really need members who have original examples to comment here.
There is no doubt that the regular Fangschnur here is original. It is only the LGHR specific cord with the paddles that is most likely a copy.

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:05 pm

Thanks everyone. The chinscales were on there when I got it. I was a little curious about that too. As far as the LGH fangschnur, I would think that an elite guard unit (one of whose functions was to look good on parade) would only have high quality gear. The cord on the LGH fangschnur looks like a cheap alternative. Here are some photos of the inside. The manufacturers stamp is pretty faded but I think the 3rd line is "Potsdam"
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Wappen loops
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Stamp on inside of liner. The only thing I can make out is what looks like 1918
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by 2nd.Leibhusar » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:41 am

I think your fangschnurr is from the right era but its Dutch.
It´s from a M1865 Shako, worn by Grenadiers.
I see them often be sold as German Husar one´s (out of ignorance or gain ) but they are more coarse than the german ones.

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:57 am

911car wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:01 am
//The only surprise is that the chinscales are for an officer. Did the busby come like this?//
Rivets are visible, so unless those are officer M15 removable chinscales, they must be Mannschaften held on with split brad officer rosettes?

That really is marvelous display. Well done.
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by 911car » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:21 am

Tony without Kaiser wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:57 am
911car wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:01 am
//The only surprise is that the chinscales are for an officer. Did the busby come like this?//
Rivets are visible, so unless those are officer M15 removable chinscales, they must be Mannschaften held on with split brad officer rosettes?

That really is marvelous display. Well done.
Tony, my immediate thought was that they are of the wartime officer removable type, hooked to regular M91 posts. I did not think of the possibility you mentioned, since the busby looks like a bona fide late enlisted model... you still might be right though.

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by 2nd.Leibhusar » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:35 pm

sjakogren1.jpg

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by 2nd.Leibhusar » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:43 pm

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:24 pm

It appears as if it has enlisted posts. Do these look like the removable officer's chinscales?
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:29 pm

2nd.Leibhusar wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:43 pm
See Previous photos
Is the 2nd one a LGHR fangschnur? The one I have has a slide similar to the top picture. I thought that fangschnur design was unique but I guess the LGH copied it. :) Awesome information! Thanks!!

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:36 pm

Wow! Those are absolutely officer M15 chinscales, very rare and very expensive.

What has happened (I suggest) is that someone has placed officer M15 scales on your Pelzmütze to 'replace' the standard M94 Cavalry chinscales. Fortunate you. I believe Bruno would agree?

The former are impossible to find, the latter are found easily. Once you find standard M94 Cavalry chinscales you will have some very desirable spare parts. :thumb up:
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:03 pm

Thanks Tony, and thanks to everyone else too! I learned a lot over the last couple days! Including finding that stamp on the backside of the liner flap. It appears to say B.5.A.1. 1918 and then I. (or L maybe, the ink is a little runny). The M94 enlisted chinscales will definitely be on the "Too Find" list! Thanks again all!!

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by 911car » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:06 pm

No doubt, Tony...
Here are similar ones (with 3 rivets) on a wartime officer helmet, together with the M15 detachable spike (note the five aeration holes, like in an enlisted spike).
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:04 pm

I saw this LGHR enlisted Pelzmutze on Helmut Wietze today. I thought it was interesting in that it also has the officer's chinscales.
https://www.weitze.com/militaria/21/Pre ... 79421.html

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by argonne » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:02 pm

cptbob wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:04 pm
I saw this LGHR enlisted Pelzmutze on Helmut Wietze today. I thought it was interesting in that it also has the officer's chinscales.
https://www.weitze.com/militaria/21/Pre ... 79421.html
This Weitze headgear piece seems to be a OYV Pelzmütze. EM Feldzeichen and cockade. Officers chinscales with rosettes fixations (no side posts M91) were also used by OYV.

Here another M15 officer helmet with those typical chinscales and M15 spike, this time a bavarian one, worn by Leutnant Otto BÖGL, 4/KBJR19, taken prisoner on the 28.6.17 in the Oppy wood (northern France, near Arras):

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by argonne » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:19 pm

cptbob wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:03 pm
that stamp on the backside of the liner flap. It appears to say B.5.A.1. 1918 and then I. (or L maybe, the ink is a little runny).
Just look closer! :wink:
Stamp is: K.B.A.G 1918 f. (Kriegsbekleidungsamt der Garde, 1918, feldbrauchbar = service able). The date could also be 1915 or 1916!

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:29 pm

argonne wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:19 pm
cptbob wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:03 pm
that stamp on the backside of the liner flap. It appears to say B.5.A.1. 1918 and then I. (or L maybe, the ink is a little runny).
Just look closer! :wink:
Stamp is: K.B.A.G 1918 f. (Kriegsbekleidungsamt der Garde, 1918, feldbrauchbar = service able). The date could also be 1915 or 1916!

Philippe
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Thanks Philippe!! Great info. In your previous post what does OYV mean? Thanks again! :thumb up:

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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:12 pm

cptbob wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:29 pm
Thanks Philippe!! Great info. In your previous post what does OYV mean? Thanks again! :thumb up:
Dated, but still relevant I think http://www.kaisersbunker.com/hp/rank.htm

And more: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/hp/class.htm
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Re: Leib Garde Hussar Enlisted Pelzmutze

Post by cptbob » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:08 pm

Thanks Tony, I must be a little slow this weekend. I knew about the Einjahrfreiwilligen rank (I have an einjahrfreiwilligen 14th HR attila) but failed to do the mental translation to English and then an acronym. Doh!!

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