Fake Saxon Wappen

Anything hauben

Moderators: b.loree, joerookery

Post Reply
User avatar
poniatowski
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by poniatowski » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:26 pm

Hi All,

I was moving helmets around today and re-discovered this plate I'd gotten back in the 1970's when I knew little or nothing about this hobby. Just to be sure, this is a fake, correct? (I know, it's a stupid question, but I don't know everything about this yet.) The solder on the loops isn't solder, but an odd brass color and the coat of arms is also brass colored rather than the proper silver. The plate is light in weight / thin (thinner than normal), but doesn't show signs of bubbles and looks to be stamped.

:D Ron
Saxon1.JPG
Saxon2.JPG
Saxon3.JPG
Saxon4.JPG
I really do need to know more about this....

User avatar
Spiker
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1107
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:32 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by Spiker » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:53 am

:-k , it looks real , the only problem is that one of the two parts has to be silver or silver coated , but I don’t see any traces .
However ,the fact that it is light is usually a good sign.
Cheers Image
Ed

User avatar
coert65
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:56 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by coert65 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:53 am

It looks real to me too.
Is it a possibility that this wappen was intended for an M15, but somehow missed the step of being painted grey? I think it plausible, because I have a Württemberg M15, with a wappen that is copper, but painted, to give it a grey finish.
So wasn't finished when war ended, or M15's being replaced bij the steel helmet in 1916/7 so ended up not finished in some depot?

Just a thought of mine. :-k

Greetings, Coert.

User avatar
pickelhauben
Exceptional Contributor
Exceptional Contributor
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: New Orleans

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by pickelhauben » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:56 am

This is a tough one .

I am certainly no expert but somethings look good and some not so.
Good
The stamping looks nice and crisp and are of brass . If it were copper that would be a big red flag .
There are traces of silver on the back of the star . All of the silver was removed on the front possibly to receive gray paint like Coert65 has said.

Bad
The attaching loops on the back are none standard and I have never seen anything like this before.
Normally the shield wappen is attached with 2 prongs or studs yours DOES NOT
That is a big red flag.

I have 7 Saxons in my collection raging from a 1867 ( spineless) to a M-15 grey with an Officers thrown in the mix and all have 2 prongs holding the shield wappen on .


Someone has taken real parts and have cobbled them together in my opinion.

User avatar
poniatowski
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by poniatowski » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:01 am

Thanks! Like I said, I don't know everything about this hobby, but this one brought up the question a few years back when I was looking at it, but never got around to posting it. That odd solder on the loops is what caught my attention as well... it just doesn't look right at all and I've never seen anything like it. Plus, the loops are crimped where they join the plate, rather than spaced. So I would agree that it's cobbled together.

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

aicusv
Exceptional Contributor
Exceptional Contributor
Posts: 988
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by aicusv » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:19 am

WurtPlatfrnt_zpsa1b2039b.jpg
I think the key here is "back in the 70's" that was my most active period of collecting. Prices for Wappen didn't support making good copies, most copies were really awful castings. But piecing together original parts was common.
fezzes frigidus es

User avatar
SkipperJohn
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:22 am

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by SkipperJohn » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:16 am

How large is this Wappen?
I have seen "Wappens" configured like this but they were not used on Pickelhauben; they were used on cartridge cases.
Generally the ones used on cartridge cases were slightly smaller than a helmet Wappen, they were one color, and they often had four loops. A cord was drawn through the four loops to hold it on.
I will try to find a photo of one.

John :)

User avatar
poniatowski
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by poniatowski » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:37 pm

Aicusv, That's right. I picked up officer front plates for $20 and I'd imagine others were even less.

Hey John,

It's in the case now, the glass of which is held in place by screwed on molding (too expensive to do sliding glass). It looks to be about 4 inches in diameter. It was on an M98 type helmet that I had picked up in the final half hour of a show for $50 and was thrilled, having never seen a Saxon wappen in color before, I didn't know about the silver. (newbie to be sure and a victim of Pickelhaube fever) I've never been able to fit a plate to the helmet (71mm between grommets), but have used it as an Uberzug form. I thought it was great until I learned differently.
Then, there are the back loops. That odd brass 'solder', which seems to flow into the plate itself is something I've never seen before. Also, the loops open side to side, rather than up and down. If it wasn't for those loops, I'd have thought somebody had just scraped off the silver from the coat of arms, or that something else legitimate was up with it.
The lead / tin solder has the prongs sealed down, so I can't remove the center to look at it for evidence of another set of prongs. To tell you the truth, if it IS original, I'd agree that it's not for a helmet and that perhaps a pin went from side to side for a uniform or similar.. busby? But that lack of 'gray' solder on the loops. That has me stumped.

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

aicusv
Exceptional Contributor
Exceptional Contributor
Posts: 988
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by aicusv » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:27 pm

A box plate for AR32 sounds like a possibility. Anyone know what they wore? They are not shown on the artillery plate at Kaisersbunker ( http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/fa1.htm )
fezzes frigidus es

User avatar
SkipperJohn
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:22 am

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by SkipperJohn » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:32 pm

There is one shown here:

http://www.militaria-online.de/artikelnr_16

It is Prussian but illustrates what I am talking about.

John :)

User avatar
Tony without Kaiser
Departed
Posts: 2723
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:22 pm
Location: Neu Braunschweig Kanada
Contact:

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:44 am

Those patterns of loops are also found on saddle blanket Wappens for mounted officers. I do not believe it is a replica. It's just not for a Pickelhaube.
Kaiser: 09 July 1997 - 12 October 2010.
Nina: 23 April 2002 - 31 July 2015.
I miss my little Noodles.
http://www.kaisersbunker.com/

User avatar
SkipperJohn
Special Ranks Member
Special Ranks Member
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:22 am

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:58 pm

poniatowski wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:37 pm

Then, there are the back loops. That odd brass 'solder', which seems to flow into the plate itself is something I've never seen before. ----- But that lack of 'gray' solder on the loops. That has me stumped.

:D Ron
Ron,
Is it possible that the loops were brazed on instead of soldered? I don't know much about metal working, but brazing uses brass instead of lead/acid or rosin core solder. I have seen brazing on numerous heavy, cast, brass pieces and it tends to "flow" directly into the components being attached. I don't know if you could braze a thin, stamped, piece.

John :?

User avatar
poniatowski
Elite Member
Elite Member
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Fake Saxon Wappen

Post by poniatowski » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:58 am

I've done some brazing, but always on steel. I think it might melt a thin brass plate. That's a good thought Tony. It just looks odd to me, but displays well by itself.
:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

Post Reply