Need Help with Painted Bavarian Field Artillery Pickel (M15 Conversion?)

[Pickle(hauben)Enjoyer]

Hello everyone,

I’m looking for info/guesses as to how this Pickel ended up this way.

The main thing that immediately jumps out at me as odd is the presence of two sets of Wappen holes, one for the m1886 and another for another (I presume the m1896 or 1914 Bavarian types?). Was there a shortage if the smaller type or was this Pickel reassembled using parts form many Pickels.
As can be seen in the images below the Wappen is original to the Haube and has been on for quite a while.

The other thing that also stands out is how all the components have been painted Feldgrau (with a red primer underneath, which I think was standard in Imperial/Nazi Germany. My guess is the conversion took place sometime in ww1 either prior or during the switch to m15 Haubes, though I’d love to be corrected.

The markings seem to be fairly clear to me except for 8FB - as far as I can tell it’s shorthand for ‘Feldbatterie’ or something along those lines though again I might be wrong.

I’d also like to hear about which parts I should get to complete the Haube, particularly the Schuppenketten as I’d guess Feldgrau ones are Essentially impossible to find. As for Kokarden I’d guess just a regular set of ww1 Bavarian officer ones.

This is my second Pickel and I’m really happy to add it to my collection, I think it will look quite nice in my cabinet.

Thanks in advance and please feel free to enlighten me!

 

[Lars13]

Hello,
Looks more like oxidized brass to me, but is hard to judge without having the helmet in hand. Helmet seems to be correct for Bavarian Feldartillerie other ranks with the eckigem Vorderschirm, Kreuzblatt and gekehlter Spitze, so I don't think this is a parts helmet. The Kokarden should be Bavarian other ranks, as it is not an officers helmet.
I can't explain the double Wappen holes, but it looks like a nice original helmet to me, congratulations!
Regards,
Lars

EDIT: the "FB" can refer to "fahrende Batterie".

 

[Pickle(hauben)Enjoyer]

Hello,
Looks more like oxidized brass to me, but is hard to judge without having the helmet in hand. Helmet seems to be correct for Bavarian Feldartillerie other ranks with the eckigem Vorderschirm, Kreuzblatt and gekehlter Spitze, so I don't think this is a parts helmet. The Kokarden should be Bavarian other ranks, as it is not an officers helmet.
I can't explain the double Wappen holes, but it looks like a nice original helmet to me, congratulations!
Regards,
Lars

EDIT: the "FB" can refer to "fahrende Batterie".

Hi Lars,

Apologies for not replying sooner. I’m somewhat inclined to agree with the metal parts having heavily oxidised/tarnished overtime, as can be seen on the back of the Wappen.

On the other hand though, the rest of the helmet particularly the spine really does seem painted to me, with the grey having a thick/paint-like texture covering a seemingly smoother layer of primer/oxidised brass underneath. I feel like the interior of the spike base would have also oxidised/tarnished a bit if the the entire thing was due to oxidation. Also the spike seemingly seems polished/shiny in areas where it has been worn down which I feel would be more consistent with a paint layer chipping off rather than oxidation.

I guess the only way to tell is to take more better and closer pictures to allow for more accurate assessment, however it is currently 3 AM here so I wound be doing so now.

As for the cockades would these be universal type or would I need specific ones?
Just saw your added comment as well thanks for clarifying.

Cheers,

Max

 

[Lars13]

Hi Max,
I think general Bavarian other ranks Kokarden would be appropriate, but I hope other members can confirm that.
Regards,
Lars

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello,
Bavaria has always maintained a certain originality in its hairstyles, compared with the regulatory Prussian standards.
In 1886, it adopted the spiked helmet (replacing the Raupenhelm), but this was a special helmet, common to the infantry, artillery and cavalry!
Identical, except for the chinstrap, with flat scales for dismounted troops (Infantry, Artillery zu Fuß) and domed scales for mounted troops (Feldartillerie, SchwererReiter, Chevaulegers).
In 1896, the infantry received a new helmet to Prussian standards, with M91 side post and a leather field chinstrap, as well as a small Bavarian plate without crossed branches under the coat of arms.
In 1896, the mounted troops (F.A.R and Cavalry) kept the M1886 helmet, but the old chinstraps were replaced by new ones, still with rounded scales, but with side post. Unlike the Prussian M91s, these side post were turned from the mass, including the lug.


Infra, the Bavarian side post M96, with his enlisted man's cockade. It must be made of nickel silver. The Bavarian M96 side post and the matching chinstrap key are specific and 1mm larger in diameter than the Prussian M91, which is stamped with the added lug.
Below, for comparison, we have a Bavarian M96 chinstrap on a Prussian M91 side post (from the Bavarian M96 infantry helmet). You can clearly see the lower dimension of the side post in relation to the chinstrap key.

For pre-M15 helmets, you just need to do the magnet test to find out whether the metal is ferrous or not.
Here we have an M86/96 with brass trim, pre-M15 in grey painted sheet steel.
The exagonal nut on the rear spine return is M14 (before it was a square nut).
The plate is the large M86 plate for enlisted men, which can still be seen with its laurel branches at the time of mobilisation, although in theory it should have been replaced by the new model at the start of the war.
Regarding the 2 extra holes at the front of the hull, perhaps the M14 plate was swapped with this M86 at some point?

These helmets were worn in the field, with the helmet cover. I have never seen this model with painted trim.

Yes : F.B. is Fahrende Batterie.

conclusion :
---M86/96 helmet from the Bavarian FeldArtillerie. It will be necessary to add a pair of roundels (Reichskokarde, and Bavarian Landkokarde enlisted) and a chinstrap of campaign (out of leather) or with scales but specific to this model.

 

[b.loree]

Great markings which fit exactly with the configuration of the helmet....no doubt about what this is. Congratulations!

 

[argonne]

Hi,

I would rather say: 3FB = 3 Fahrende Batterie (I do not think this is a "8" and we have here Batterie, not Bataillon)...

About the eventuality of brass fittings that have been painted feldgrau: I own a M95 EM FAR78 saxon helmet, with brass fittings (and silver center of the wappen) that have been painted feldgrau during the war. The owner, a volunteer recruit for 12 years of service (born 3.11.1890) had the rank of Unteroffizier just before the war. He died on the 27.6.1916 owning the rank of Sergeant. No doubt about it that he would have been promoted to Vizewachtmeister or Wachtmeister if he would not have been KIA...

Philippe

 

[argonne]

Philippe

 

[Pickle(hauben)Enjoyer]

Hi Max,
I think general Bavarian other ranks Kokarden would be appropriate, but I hope other members can confirm that.
Regards,
Lars

Hi again Lars,

Thanks a lot for helping me with the Kokarden.

Max

 

[Pickle(hauben)Enjoyer]

Hi,

I would rather say: 3FB = 3 Fahrende Batterie (I do not think this is a "8" and we have here Batterie, not Bataillon)...

About the eventuality of brass fittings that have been painted feldgrau: I own a M95 EM FAR78 saxon helmet, with brass fittings (and silver center of the wappen) that have been painted feldgrau during the war. The owner, a volunteer recruit for 12 years of service (born 3.11.1890) had the rank of Unteroffizier just before the war. He died on the 27.6.1916 owning the rank of Sergeant. No doubt about it that he would have been promoted to Vizewachtmeister or Wachtmeister if he would not have been KIA...

Philippe

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Hi Philippe,

Thanks for sharing! As far as I can tell the spike on my helmet has quite a similar look to the Kugel on your helmet. The spine does too, I’d like to hear your thoughts (perhaps I should take better pictures now that I’ve cleaned the helmet to a decent extent.

Regards,
Max

 

[Pickle(hauben)Enjoyer]

Hello,
Bavaria has always maintained a certain originality in its hairstyles, compared with the regulatory Prussian standards.
In 1886, it adopted the spiked helmet (replacing the Raupenhelm), but this was a special helmet, common to the infantry, artillery and cavalry!
Identical, except for the chinstrap, with flat scales for dismounted troops (Infantry, Artillery zu Fuß) and domed scales for mounted troops (Feldartillerie, SchwererReiter, Chevaulegers).
In 1896, the infantry received a new helmet to Prussian standards, with M91 side post and a leather field chinstrap, as well as a small Bavarian plate without crossed branches under the coat of arms.
In 1896, the mounted troops (F.A.R and Cavalry) kept the M1886 helmet, but the old chinstraps were replaced by new ones, still with rounded scales, but with side post. Unlike the Prussian M91s, these side post were turned from the mass, including the lug.

View attachment 62545
Infra, the Bavarian side post M96, with his enlisted man's cockade. It must be made of nickel silver. The Bavarian M96 side post and the matching chinstrap key are specific and 1mm larger in diameter than the Prussian M91, which is stamped with the added lug.
Below, for comparison, we have a Bavarian M96 chinstrap on a Prussian M91 side post (from the Bavarian M96 infantry helmet). You can clearly see the lower dimension of the side post in relation to the chinstrap key.
View attachment 62544
For pre-M15 helmets, you just need to do the magnet test to find out whether the metal is ferrous or not.
Here we have an M86/96 with brass trim, pre-M15 in grey painted sheet steel.
The exagonal nut on the rear spine return is M14 (before it was a square nut).
The plate is the large M86 plate for enlisted men, which can still be seen with its laurel branches at the time of mobilisation, although in theory it should have been replaced by the new model at the start of the war.
Regarding the 2 extra holes at the front of the hull, perhaps the M14 plate was swapped with this M86 at some point?

These helmets were worn in the field, with the helmet cover. I have never seen this model with painted trim.
View attachment 62547
Yes : F.B. is Fahrende Batterie.

conclusion :
---M86/96 helmet from the Bavarian FeldArtillerie. It will be necessary to add a pair of roundels (Reichskokarde, and Bavarian Landkokarde enlisted) and a chinstrap of campaign (out of leather) or with scales but specific to this model.

Thanks for the write-up; one thing I noticed when reassembling the helmet after cleaning the rear of the Wappen was that it actually wasn’t properly attached and that neither set of holes actually matched, which I find rather odd. Visor trim also seems to be too large fort helmet, which seems to already been the case when it was originally in use, the rest of the trim fitting perfectly with any slight bends in the visor. On the inderside of the visor there also seems to be a ‘H’ marked into the leather, does this have any significance or is it just a mark indicating size, etc?
Is there a guide to reguluing the trim, or is it generally perceived as modifying the helmet in a destructive way?

Additionally, would you recommend buying an original brass one or buying a Repro and then using an airbrush to match the aesthetic of the rest of the helmet?

+ How hard would you estimate these being to acquire if I go for all originals. Would I be able to procure them individually or would I probably need to buy more Pickels just for the cockades?

Thanks again and I apologise for the late reply (I’ve been working on the helmet this whole time),

Max

 

[Lars13]

Visor trim also seems to be too large fort helmet

Hi Max,
Leather typically can shrink significantly, and a visor with a trim that seems oversized is quite common, and can absolutely be original. The trim in your front visor seems to belong to the helmet both in shape, size and patina, and I would not change it out. Imo you would be changing your original helmet into a parts helmet.
Regards,
Lars

 

[coert65]

Hi Max,
Leather typically can shrink significantly, and a visor with a trim that seems oversized is quite common, and can absolutely be original. The trim in your front visor seems to belong to the helmet both in shape, size and patina, and I would not change it out. Imo you would be changing your original helmet into a parts helmet.
Regards,
Lars

I fully agree with Lars on this.

 

[Pickle(hauben)Enjoyer]

Great markings which fit exactly with the configuration of the helmet....no doubt about what this is. Congratulations!

Thank you!

 

[Pickle(hauben)Enjoyer]

Hi Max,
Leather typically can shrink significantly, and a visor with a trim that seems oversized is quite common, and can absolutely be original. The trim in your front visor seems to belong to the helmet both in shape, size and patina, and I would not change it out. Imo you would be changing your original helmet into a parts helmet.
Regards,
Lars

Thanks,

is there any way to ‘unshrink’ it without damaging or is it permanent? The reason I think it may actually be quite old is that the visor fits like a glove on the shrunken visor, indicating that it may have been adjusted at some point.

Additionally, I didn’t mean to replace the visor trim, merely reattach at it as it is currently only hanging on using the the 2 split pins on either side of the visor which seems to be damaging the helmet every time I move it.

Thanks in advance