A good challenge for you

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
We are having some great discussions about Bavarian stuff recently, and then Chas gave us his great mystery M15 thread. So here is a donated helmet I moved up in the queue. So go ahead, tell us what it is. I will remain silent for as long as I can stand it which regularly is not that long. So take a swing. This could generate some great stuff, or just silence...

BavOC.jpg
 
You are relatively sneaky I suspect (years in the Army will do that) so I expect a surprise but I have looked and looked and cannot see anything past a Bayern Mannschaften Eigentums-helm?
 
I have a Wurtt. that could be this things brother so I'll stick my novice's neck out for a laugh and say "Is it a Vulkanfibre body Bavarian Fahnenjunker/Fahnriche private purchase helmet".That spikes a whopper - they wouldnt let an ordinary private get away with that would they? I notice it has no rear vent and I notice that, like all your stuff, Joe, that it's totally gorgeous! Why fibre? I dunno really-it looks very consistent and flawless - but then so do all the blasted things you show us. :wink:

Why dont you offer it as the prize for the closest appraisal. :lol:

PS Joe -who donated it and how do I reach him?
 
Although the spike on my helmet is shorter, this is essentially the same Eigentumshelm as Mr. X's.

What don't I know about it Joe?

KICX0353.jpg


KICX0354.jpg
 
Hello again, Joe. Is this infantry or artillery?The only slightly odd thing to my eyes, and I'm clutching at straws now to try and save face,is the number of scales on the 'jugulaire'. Or it may not be an odd thing - but I can count 11 actual scales when it more often seems to be 12 or 13 - like Chas's example. So maybe this one is a bit smaller than usual. And is some sort of really classy kinderhelm made for young royalty to wear at parades and stuff? Or have I just gone and shot myself in the foot again?

Bang! :oops:
 
Hi Mike:

I believe my helmet (size 54-1/2) is smaller than Mr. X's. If you compare the the surface area of the Korpus around the Bayern Wappen, I think this is readily apparent. I don't think either are Kinderhelm.

The scales on my helmet are flat. To me, it's an infantry helmet. However, the scales on both helmets are more "delicately" proportioned than issued scales, which is consistent with Eigentumstück.

I'd like to know more about the spike on Mr. X's helmet. Mine is static and hollow. That bead around the spitzehals has me wondering about the potential takedown. Next thing we know, Joe will tell us it's an M15 for Wachtmeister/Unteroffizier mit Portepee or something.

Chas. :roll:
 
One further note. The Wappen and domed retainers on my helmet are threaded fasteners--not split brads.

Chas.
 
More info.

The helmet size is 59. The spike screws off. The front plate and spike base retainers are threaded posts. The rear spine has a sliding vent.
 
You can all throw rocks at me anytime you want. What excited me about this helmet is its purpose. As Indigo Montoya said in the movie "The Princess Bride.", let me explain -- -- no there is too much... let me sum up.

Tony hit it right on the head the first time -- --Bayern Mannschaften Eigentums-helm. But what exactly does that mean? Doesn't the term Eigentums-helm put things in a nice little box? Even the references call these Eigentums-helm. So an extra - private purchase helmet. This could be worn by: 1. Any not commissioned individual.. 2. A one year volunteer.

Outside of the kingdoms of Wurttemberg, and Bavaria, one year volunteers wore helmets that were somewhat similar to a commissioned officer's helmet. Similar to the helmet below, you could add items or change them which would convert a helmet.
oyv2.jpg

In Wurttemberg and Bavaria, you couldn't do this. The commissioned officer helmet was significantly different than the non-commissioned helmet. So similar to the picture below, a one year volunteer in Bavaria would be buying a helmet. That was used for his time as a one year volunteer only. It could not be converted.
oyv1.jpg

To buy low grade Eigentums-helm cost about 15 marks. A low ranking soldier would make about 10 marks a month. So I don't think there was a lot of this. Some maybe. However, a Bavarian one year volunteer could sink as much money as he wanted into a helmet. This particular guy sunk a lot of money into his helmet. The spike unscrews and is significantly taller than a standard 8.5 cm spike. The wappen is frosted, and who knows how many other parts are gilded. Chas’ helmet while very similar is more standard. You could buy a low grade Diensthelme or a higher grade fancy helm. Maybe this guy had both. There is a 48 mm cockade for someone without a Portepee.

So what gets me excited about this is a very high-grade one year volunteer helmet. It could be for a low grade Fähnrich, but definitely not a Portepee Fähnrich.

OK small things excite me, but at my age any excitement is a great thing. Let me get behind a wall before you start throwing rocks
 
joerookery said:
Chas’ helmet while very similar is more standard.
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Mine came with its original transport case. :cry:

You are asking for it!:wink:

Chas.
 
joerookery said:
You can all throw rocks at me anytime you want.//To buy low grade Eigentums-helm cost about 15 marks. A low ranking soldier would make about 10 marks a month. So I don't think there was a lot of this.
Click to expand...

Up here we throw beavers. If I could just add a new possibility to your affect re: Private Jürgen buying a 15 DM Eigentums-Helme on a salary of 10 DM a month. My hypothesis, (here we go!) is that few, if any lower ranking men actually bought these helmets. I believe they were more often given as a gift by family or friends when the man was called to service, and that this was very common.

Think about it, Hans goes into the Army for his compulsorily service, he knows exactly what unit and Arm he will be joining as per the German home service concept, so the family chips in and buys him an Eigentums Waffenrock and Helme to wear off camp. On camp of course, issued kit only. But off camp, when he comes home, he can wear the Eigentums kit gift. There are just tons of photos out there of no-rank guys wearing Eigentums-Helme and waffenrock, but only you will notice, in studio or family photos.
 
I completely agree with your gift idea. Pickelhaube giving was apparently a big deal. I just haven't seen any good statistics on it. I have read something somewhere that said that one of the reasons there was such resistance to going to the steel helmets was because culturally three generations of Germans have been giving Pickelhaubes as gifts.

No one ever gave me a gift of a pickelhaube. But Christmas is soon. So who knows!
 
But I'm confused here.
Is 'Mannschaft' and OYV the same thing then? I thought that OYV's had slightly more 'clout' than Mannschaften because they were aspiring Officer types, at least until they passed or failed their exams.But I guess now that they did'nt! -[have any more clout]. They were just poncing around flaunting their flashy new 'haubes off to all and sundry whilst having no more status than an ordinary ranker - right?

I thought also that fahnrich/fahnenjunker was a sort of OYV? But these guy's had passed their exams right? I think I could be a victim of 'conventional wisdom' here. I'm gonna go read your articles on this Joe.
:roll: :roll:
 
They were just poncing around flaunting their flashy new 'haubes off to all and sundry whilst having no more status than an ordinary ranker - right?
Click to expand...

Correct. In fact, they were quite different. They were segregated and socially an anomaly. I open the my article on this and found there were a bunch of question marks in boxes where spaces and ä used to be. I think I fixed them.
The answer is in an understanding of the OYVs. OYVs were neither officers nor officer aspirants. They were OR types. They were enlisted men. Fritz Nagel was an OYV. In his 1962 memoirs he detailed his position as a OYV. "And nobody spoke to us. In our battery we were five one year men completely separated socially from the others. We were still considered common soldiers." [v] Yes, they were different and privileged and after time they could become officers but calling a OYV an officer and looking at the helmet that way is wrong.
Click to expand...
.

A Fähnrich and a one year volunteer or not the same thing, though their helmets in many cases are identical.
http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/new%20OneYearVolunteer.htm
 
Hey Joe, It sure looks skiwampus, but I think it may be a trick of perspective and that the Soldat has the Helm on a bit skewed.
Gus
 
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