A mysterious photo from China

L

leutwein

New member
Hello,

this is my first post in this very interesting forum and I hope to learn a lot here especially about uniforms of the "Schutztruppe" and "east asians units".

One or two years ago I bought this mysterious photo, which is showing a german unit in China (probably in Kiautschou). Note the headgear and equipment (especially the ammo belt) of those soldiers. What kind of unit could it be??

The headgear looks similar but not identical with those of the Schutztruppe in Africa. Also of interest is the type of wearing the ammo belt. Like the "Landespolizei" (police unit) in German Southwestafrica. As I know did the fifth company (cavalary unit) of the third marine infantry also worn their ammo belts across their chests but I can not imagine that those soldiers are members of the fifth company. Didn´t they wear the same headgear like the others companies of the third marine infantry, I think so.

On the backside is written that the picture was taken during Admiral Günter von Krosigk took a speech to the company.

As I know was Admiral Günter von Krosigk around 1910 to 1913 Chief of the East Asian Cruiser Squadron, so the picture must be taken around these period 1910 to 1913.

Could they be reservists??

I would be very grateful for any idea or help!

All the bests

Leutwein

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Welcome, Leutwein! Unfortunately I'm not that good when it comes to overseas troops, but I will try.

I found this web page http://www.sacktrick.com/igu/germancolonialuniforms/oaeksummer.htm that shows the uniform of the 1st East Asian Infantry Regiment. The uniform doesn't match yours exactly, the collars are different and the troops are wearing their hats differently, but perhaps there is some relationship there.
 
Hello Liongules,

thanks for your help!

But those soldiers of your link were/ are members of the East Asian Expedition Corps, who took part on the Boxer War (1900/1901). They worn a straw hat but the soldiers on my mysterie pic wear a hat which is very similar with the African hat, which was called "Südwester".

I put a picture of a member of the East Asian Expedition Corps and I hope you can see the differences between the caps of my mysterie pic and those of the East Asian Expedition Corps.

Best wishes

Leutwein

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Hello Leutwein,
I would not think that these troops would be reservists, as their uniforms and equipment are very well matched, and usually when one sees photos of reservists, they have poorly matched uniforms and equipment. Although that could be something seen more in wartime photos.
A very interesting photo.
Best wishes
Gus
 
leutwein said:
Hello Liongules,

thanks for your help!

But those soldiers of your link were/ are members of the East Asian Expedition Corps, who took part on the Boxer War (1900/1901). They worn a straw hat but the soldiers on my mysterie pic wear a hat which is very similar with the African hat, which was called "Südwester".

I put a picture of a member of the East Asian Expedition Corps and I hope you can see the differences between the caps of my mysterie pic and those of the East Asian Expedition Corps.

Best wishes

Leutwein

35lyt6a.jpg
Click to expand...

Leutwein,

I agree completely, the soldiers in your photo are not dressed like the East Asian Expedition Corps, I meant to say that they were similar. The hats are very different and worn in a different manner.

Perhaps this group, whoever they are, obtained their hats from the same maker who made hats for the troops in Africa?????
 
Hello Leutwein: In studying your second photograph the portions of the rifle visible next to the soldier in the foreground apear more like a British Enfield than a Gew. 88 or Gew. 98. If that is the case the troops would be from the British Empire, probably Australia.

Is it possible to post a larger image of the photograph which may reveal more detail to positively identify the rifle?

Reservist1
 
reservist1 said:
Hello Leutwein: In studying your second photograph the portions of the rifle visible next to the soldier in the foreground apear more like a British Enfield than a Gew. 88 or Gew. 98. If that is the case the troops would be from the British Empire, probably Australia.

Is it possible to post a larger image of the photograph which may reveal more detail to positively identify the rifle?

Reservist1
Click to expand...

Leutwein

I agree with R1, please enlarge those 3 men at the end of the row, especially their rifles. I think these men are Austro-Hungarians, and those rifles are Mannlichers.
 
Hello,

at first thanks for all your help!

I hope these images are of high quality to study them.

I can not believe that this group were members of the British Empire, because their commander wrote the note on the backside and it is in german. Unfortunately he didn´t notice some informations about his company.

Were Austro-Hungarians (infantry troops) stationed in China?? But the medal bar of their commander is the german style and Austrians didn´t mount their decorations in that kind of style (also called prussian).

Best wishes

Leutwein

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One pic of their commander (I hope you can see the bar, which is mounted in the german or prussian style.)

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Detail of the rifles

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and a detail of their hats (those objects on their hats looks like flaming grenade or something like that)

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I hope this qualtiy is good enough 8)

If not, I have to say: How can I put larger pics?

The lower object could be a state cockade.

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another pic of their hats

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Leutwein: Thank you for the enlarged images. The rifles are definitely British Enfields. Here is a photograph of the butt portion of a Lee Enfield rifle. Note the shape of the pistol grip, long wrist area, metal band at the rear of the receiver and the magazine. All of these features match the rifles in your photos.

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The leather ammunition bandoliers and hats are very similar to the patterns worn by Australian troops during the early part of the 20th century. Perhaps one of the forum members who is well versed in British empire uniforms can provide more definitive information on the specific nationality of the troops in the photographs.

Reservist1
 
I tried to enlarge the photos on my computer and they're very fuzzy, but that looks to me like the Australian army rising sun badge above the cockade on the hats.

australianarmyte6.gif


But there appears to be very German looking embroidery on the shoulder straps, and the officer on the horse appears to have German officer's shoulder straps too.

Australia did have naval forces in China for the Boxer Rebellion in 1901, but I can't find anything about army troops.
 
reservist1 said:
Leutwein: Thank you for the enlarged images. The rifles are definitely British Enfields. Here is a photograph of the butt portion of a Lee Enfield rifle. Note the shape of the pistol grip, long wrist area, metal band at the rear of the receiver and the magazine. All of these features match the rifles in your photos.

smlebr3.jpg

Reservist1
Click to expand...

R1

Looks like you nailed it. Any chance you have a pic of the left side of the stock and the magazine bottem?

Thanks!
 
Thanks R1!

Were these charger or en bloc clip loaded? I was wondering as I always thought the Lee-Enfield was charger loaded, but the magazine second from left of the enlarged pics looks like there was an openeing in the bottem of the magazine, like a Mannlicher or Gew 88. Could be my pc too!
 
The magazine is detachable and has a capacity of 10 cartridges. The small lever in front of the trigger is the magazine release. In normal practice the magazine was left in the rifle and loaded with chargers. On the No.1 Mk1 variation the charger guide is a two piece unit with the right half attached to the bolt head. On all later No's. and Mk's the charger guide is a fixed bridge on the receiver. Ammunition was supplied in 5 round chargers.

Reservist1
 
Thanks for your help! I´m very confused about those men who are wearing the australian uniforms. :eek:

What could been the reason for that?? I can only say that their commander (on the horse) was german, because he wrote the notes on the backside. Also I can say that the picture must be taken around 1911 because "Admiral von Krosigk" was from 1910 to 1912 chief of the East Asian Crusader Squadron.

Very mysterious! Any ideas?

Best wishes

Leutwein
 
They could be the Shanghai Volunteer Corps. :)

Numerous goodwill visits were made by the East Asiastic Squadron to Shanghai.Waldersee first deployed to there as well in 1900.

Nationalties wore there own uniforms,these look like the British Company.There was also a Light Horse section.

Here's some members of the American Mounted Detachment 1917 as well:

http://digarc.usc.edu/impa/controller/view/impa-m2700.html
 
Thanks a lot Peter h for your comment and I think you are right!

Those are members of the "Shanghai Volunteer Corps" :lol:

But I think that they are germans and not british Volunteers. Because their commander wrote the note on the backside of this photo and I can´t believe that a german was commanding british soldiers.

Also I found in a book that the german volunteers worn a slouch hat like the members of the african colonies, as we can see on this picture.

And I saw on a period photo that the german volunteers (around 1900) used also the British Enfields. That photo must be taken between 1899 and 1901. But the volunteer of that picture wore a different uniform and a tropical helmet!

The mystery is solved :D Thanks to all!

All the best

Leutwein
 
leutwein said:
And I saw on a period photo that the german volunteers (around 1900) used also the British Enfields. That photo must be taken between 1899 and 1901. But the volunteer of that picture wore a different uniform and a tropical helmet!
Click to expand...

Could you post that photo here too, please?



I'm curious to know what the badge is above the cockade on the hats, I thought it might be the badge of the SVC, but when I Googles it it looked quite different (see about a quarter of the way down this page = http://student.science.nus.edu.sg/~scip9109/zxr-shanghai/shanghai.htm )

This is a very interesting thread, thanks for starting it.
Cheers
Chris
 
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