A seldom one with red numbers helmet cover

By member joerookery:
What do you think is with the 1896 date on the cover?
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Hi Joe,

That's an excellent question. Is this not the first pattern cover with the spike area portion of the cover having only these small round vent holes in it? Did this first pattern cover exist this early? (I personally thought that they did exist pre-1900, but I don't have the reference book evidence in front of me to confirm my statement here).

Hope to see you at the S.O.S.!


Best Regards,

Alan
 
Alan,

No, you are wrong. However this is a good wrong. I recommend you strongly to the following article:

http://pickelhauben.net/helmet-covers-uberzug/

This is not the first pattern. However, it appears to be from a very short-lived reserve unit life in 1896.

There was a big piece of direction in the form of an Ako in 1897. Clearly this had been agitated score and your example predates the Ako. And the standardization brought about. So your example predates my knowledge when I wrote this article so many years ago.
 
joerookery said:
// There was a big piece of direction in the form of an Ako in 1897. Clearly this had been agitated score and your example predates the Ako. And the standardization brought about. So your example predates my knowledge when I wrote this article so many years ago.//
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That does seem like a very long time ago. Joe my references and research show 1892 as the introduction date.

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/uberzug.htm

So would it not make sense that the early blank 1892 covers would have been turned in to have number and/or letters attached?
 
That does make sense. My problem with all of this relatively early stuff is that I had difficulty in finding the primary source. perhaps you have had more success but there are a series of references that point to documents that just do not seem to exist. There definitely were covers prior to 1892. Were they issued to the entire army? Were they reserved for the fall maneuvers? I don't know.

The original covers were allegedly authorized by an AKO dated 8 May 1884. The purpose of this was to have some way of marking sides during maneuvers. The solution that was used was to equip one side of the maneuvers with a white cloth cover. There is an example of this cover located in the museum in Rastatt.

http://pickelhauben.net/old-site/articles/images/uberzug/1884%20model.jpg

The problem is that there was no AKO in 1884 that authorized these Uberzugs. At least I have been unable to find it. Therefore, I do not know whether the authorization extended throughout the army, just for the Kaiser maneuver, or only for a specific group. They surely existed, and they surely were for maneuver purposes, but there was no AKO.

Perhaps Glenn might find something in the uniform regulations.
ps707 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

Not only was this the first picture found. there is also a drawing of one in the Rochling Prints. these are undated. However they highlight a picture of Georg Leo Graf von Caprivi de Caprera de Montecuccol. an interesting guy, who had a running feud with Bismarck. As a result, this army general was appointed as the head of the Imperial Navy even though we had no experience. Caprivi followed Bismarck as the Chancellor during the years 1890 – 1894. So that cover was in use to at least 1890.
Röchling27 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

these same cover was seen on another picture originating with JR 60.
ps1750 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

ps1750b by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

There is no date on this card.

I was in the process of looking up where JR 60 fell in the fall maneuvers as the first unit obviously wore Litzen. specifically, you could determine JR 60s participation in the annual Kaisermaneuver. I don't know if that would prove anything definitively but it would at least be an interesting point of data. However, I decided to move on to other things when a certain member of this forum decided to rule ex cathedra on all things Uberzug.

In summary, I think there were covers well-documented in photographs prior to 1892. Finding the authorization documents has been elusive if they exist.
 
In the Rochling Print the Guards Schützen appear to be armed with the 1888 model rifle. If anything I would think that unit would have been one of the first to receive the new 98s. The photo is also a Guards unit and armed with the Gewehr' 88.
 
I have the same pattern cover in my collection. It is dated 1901 and the numbers on the front were added at a much later date. As the as unit tamps on the inside are for a couple of units prior to what is on the front.
 
I have the same pattern cover in my collection. It is dated 1901 and the numbers on the front were added at a much later date. As the as unit tamps on the inside are for a couple of units prior to what is on the front.
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Can you post a picture of your cover as well as the stamps?
 
Joe, of course you can use the markings to add to the list! You do not have to ask in the future for that anymore :wink:

Concerning the Überzug, here is my understanding: this is what the french collectors call a M92 Überzug. Jean Louis Larcade mentioned it in his book too but wrote that this pattern already had five hooks (three at the front and two at the back). We in France are thinking that there also was a simplified 4 hooks pattern, as we saw a few good exemples of this pattern dated between 1892 and 1896.

I am thinking that this helmet cover was regimentally marked and dated the very first time in the year 1896 as it was first worn at the III/RJR51. As this bataillon stopped to exist shortly before the mobilisation (only I and II/RJR51 were deployed), the surnumeral equipment of this bataillon has been dispatched to units which had some needs. So it seems that the JR 125 was one of this units. As the helmet is marked BA XIII 1912, I may think that the cover came at the JR125 at this period to cover this helmet. There were no numbers of the RJR51 or JR125 ever stitched or painted on this cover. It first happened as the helmet moved to the III/RJR119 just before the mobilisation during the preparation of war (1913 or 1914). Red R 119 was then stitched at the outside of the cover.

And finally the cover and the hooks have been returned by the wearer himself in the field between early August and the 10.9.1914, to hide the red numbers. Much german already have been killed through headshots, just caused by the red color which was a good target for french soldiers.
The AKO which ordered to take the red numbers away was not first, one has to understand that it only was the result of what already happened in the field! A similar thing happened with the introduction of the M15 with removable spike. A lot of soldiers already have removed the spikes from their M95 or other Ersatz helmet patterns with not removable spike for the same reason as the red numbers. A good target for the ennemy....It happened FIRST in the field too, some soldiers initiatives which were tolerated by the regiments because of life saving.Then it was decided with AKO to introduce a new helmet with removable spike, the M15. Not an action, only a reaction.

Here some period picts showing that. No, those helmets are no M15!!!

m15_sa10.jpg


pickel12.jpg


This third pict has been taken near the river Düna (Daugava) on the eastern front, at the end of 1915, showing soldiers of the RJR254 with all kind of helmets which are not M15. Some soldiers removed spike, spikes neck and spike base and others only spike letting the neck looking out of the cover.

01910.jpg


Philippe
:)
 
Philippe,

Thank you and this is getting much more interesting! As if it wasn't interesting and special already! My next set of questions revolve around the units you mentioned. Where did you come up with the connection with RJR 51? That was in VI corps and was mobilized by JR 22 and 23. What is the connection between RJR 51 and JR 125?

My understanding is that neither RJR 51 nor RJR 119 existed prior to mobilization. There may have been a desk at the Bez.Kdo. but they did not exist for any length of time. Rather, they were formed prior to mobilization only for a short time to meet the service obligations of reservists. So the Bez. Kdo. would send out letters requiring reservists to gather a certain place and there they were formed into reserve units for two weeks. Then they were dissolved. so my understanding is that the red numbers from RJR 119 would have come from one of the short-lived formations. I think it is very possible that some Kammer could have been directed to affix the numbers and then after use were stored in the depot. Then they could be taken out of the depot and issued in time of mobilization.

While you're at it please identify for me Kemberg hill.I cannot find it so I turned to Pierre who has huge knowledge of this region and we had a humorous exchange. This retreat obviously happened earlier than his website but he says he needs the French name. So is there a French name? Do you have a location on a map?
 
I have an M95 brass spike in my collection which has had the spike removed (un screwed) and the top of the neck filled in with solder. I had assumed that this was done to lower the profile. These pictures confirm this. My thanks.
 
Looking at the stamps inside the cover, its been through a couple of units as well. One being GR123, although a Württemberg unit, the helmet fittings silver. This causes me to think that the cover and helmet came together either with service with RJR 119 or later.
 
joerookery said:
Philippe,

1) Where did you come up with the connection with RJR 51? That was in VI corps and was mobilized by JR 22 and 23. What is the connection between RJR 51 and JR 125?

2) While you're at it please identify for me Kemberg hill.I cannot find it so I turned to Pierre who has huge knowledge of this region and we had a humorous exchange. This retreat obviously happened earlier than his website but he says he needs the French name. So is there a French name? Do you have a location on a map?
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Joe,
To answer your questions:

1) The connection with III/RJR51 is made through all three regimental stamps on the cover: 51.R.J.R.3.B (stroke-out), then 125.R. (stroke-out) and finally R.J.R.119.3.B. As I wrote the connection between RJR51 and JR125 is that the III/RJR51 stopped to exist shortly before war and its equipment was then dispatch to "poor" units which were in lack of equipment, here obviously the JR125. I already saw in the past one other similar and curious equipment fluctuation between two AK in peace time. Here is a helmet of a french collector friend of mine. First issued 1892 at the thuringian JR71 (XI AK), then, for some curious reasons (obviously shortage of helmets to equip the reservists during their periodic recalling) at the westphalian 3B RJR15 / Detmold (VII AK). Then the helmet returned to the XI AK shortly before mobilisation and was issued the last time at the RJR82 2B.

img_4513.jpg


img_4511.jpg


My understanding is that a lot of RJR have existed before the war, only on the paper. Their main role was to assume the periodic recalling of reservists and to equip them during this few weeks of exercising. So somehow, they have needed some equipment to do that and placed their stamps on the equipment they could get from various other units which did not need it anymore. That was mostly old equipment, but that was not the rule! I even know brand new M95 helmets (made 1913-14) which never have been issued before to an active regiment and which are only showing a RJR stamp! There were some very rich Bekleidungsämter with a lot of new equipment to even equip their RJR and LJR but also very poor BA´s which had to get some very old stuff back from their Landwehr units because of lack of equipment in their active units at the mobilisation (LJR84 ->JR84 at the BA IX). So I think it´s totally wrong to think that all RJR and LJR only have worn very old helmets with Garnitur II, II or even older. There were no rules except the own financial possibilities of each Bekleidungsamt. Here is an example of mine, only one issue in the year 1905 at the silesian LJR19. A brand new helmet only to equip the Landwehr Rekruten during their periodic recalling in peace time. This unit only saw the eastern front during the whole war, so this helmet is not very common.









I also think that during the years 1912-1914, a lot of equipment was already dispatched to all reserve units through the whole empire, so that they can quickly deploy when the war will be declared. The German forces were already ready to fight a few years before war. All was done and prepared for the mobilisation.

2) Now about the Kemberg hill ( col d´Anozel). Here are 4 maps. The firts is showing the moving of the III/RJR119 of GRIESINGER between the 29.8 and the 10.9.14. The highest point of the Kemberg hill is showed as a red drop. This forest hill is located at the western border of the alsacian town of Saint-Dié-des-Vosges:



Kemberg-w.jpg


Rain-des-Cailloux-IGN-detail-w.jpg


Rain-des-Cailloux-IGN.jpg


A pict of Saint-Dié with the Kemberg hill in the background:



Philippe
:wink:
 
Philippe,

We are saying the exact same thing..

My understanding is that a lot of RJR have existed before the war, only on the paper. Their main role was to assume the periodic recalling of reservists and to equip them during this few weeks of exercising.
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Therefore your helmet with the red markings is extremely rare as he RJR whichever one it was drew its equipment from the regional depot but only for a two-week exercise. Which you this is exactly looks like 1913 but it is a wonderful sample.

Thank you for the maps of the hill. I understand it now and surprisingly it does have a French name! Shows you what I know. Thanks again.
 
joerookery said:
An additional question: where did you find the very first map? The one with the unit movements?
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Joe,

I found it there:

http://www.histoire-passy-montblanc.fr/histoire-de-passy/de-la-prehistoire-au-xxie-s/la-guerre-de-1914-1918/les-soldats-de-passy-en-1914/jmo-du-30e-ri-combats-autour-de-st-die-aout-sept-1914/

But the units movements have been made by me on the map after exactly reading the facts in the regimental story of the RJR119:

http://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/sammlungen/sammlungsliste/werksansicht/?no_cache=1&tx_dlf%5Bid%5D=2273&tx_dlf%5Bpage%5D=1&tx_dlf%5Bpointer%5D=4

Philippe
:wink:
 
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