Artillery generals helmet

Joe

I don't have my references here, but I'll bet that your plates also don't show a figure(s) for reserve crosses on PB10, IR73 and IR87. By omission, I don't see anything definative in those plates.

Dave
 
Dave,

You're right, I didn't find any reference to them in the plates. However, I discovered some other things, while looking. First will go to the Trawnik book page 50 where he shows a grenadier reserve with a landwehr cross in the low position and a landwehr grenadier plate with the cross in the middle of the chest. He clearly shows a difference between grenadier reserve and grenadier landwehr. Neither of them has a bandeau.

Next comes the Stubbs book with pictures from page 103 to page 105. I do not like his captions for these pictures. On page 103, he shows a grenadier plate with the cross in the low position calls it a reserve officer and says that it should have been in the middle of the chest based on a war minister order from 1869.

On page 105 through page 108. There is another grenadier helmet with the landwehr cross in the middle of the chest and a bandeau. The caption says. "The reserve crosses was probably attached to the existing helmet plate when the officer passed into the reserve." Yet this is an M15 helmet and that is not how the commissioning/career progression process worked.

Then you come to the Hilsenbeck book. On page 101. There is a grenadier plate with a cross in the center of the chest, but no caption. On page 111. There is a similar plate called a reserve officer. I found no picture of than 87, 88 or PB 10 with a landwehr cross. However, there is a picture of a Waterloo helmet as in 74, 77, 78, 164, 165. That has a landwehr cross in the low position, an FR on the chest and no bandeau.

I'm still looking and have a lot of sources yet to look at busy day lots of fun
 
Joe

Just for fun, look up Didier Laine's soft-bound book " Le Repertoire de L' Armee Allemande" and go to page 13 showing the various infanfry grenadier plates with pineapples. The go to pages 21 and 23 showing chickens on DR1, DR3 and UR7. I know this certainly isn't definative, but at least there is a recognition of the grenadier/chicken plate.

Dave

By the way, on the hardbound Didier Laine book, DR1 and DR3 are shown as grenadier plates with pineapples. Only UR7 show the grenadier/chicken plate.
 
You are right on with Laine. But some interesting news for your idea is that the famous plate photographs from Paul Meybauer, show all of the grenadier plates with curly hilts and pineapples. All of the guard Eagles have bowtie hilts and chickens. But the interesting news for you is that he has a picture labeled as Dragoon regiments number one and three showing a grenadier eagle with a bowtie hilt and a chicken.

Saunders on page 22 and page 23 shows a first Dragoon officer helmet with bowtie hilt on a grenadier wappen with pineapple.

Back on another subject, Hilsenbeck on page 85 shows a reserve guard helmet with a hilt I really can't make out what looks like it is curly and has a pineapple.

Lots of data bits :D
 
Chas,

Please see below.
I have an example of the curly cue hilt front plate with chix.
I have also attached pictures of the art. gen. helmet (which I no longer have) with bow tie/chix, and foot grd officer with pineapple and curly cue.

Picture017.jpg

Picture015.jpg

1stGrdzF-1.jpg

IMG_1136.jpg

artgen-2.jpg



Joe,
Do you know if there were any regulations for the use of pineapple and curly cue?
I think if there were no regulations helmet makers just used up what they had to turn over their inventory. After all they were in business to make money.
 
Hi Cyrus:

Thank you for posting the pictures. Now we have three examples with a curly-cue/chicken.

How did your Reserve Garde RzF/Fusilier helmet come to possess a Preußen general's spike? I'm intrigued by that. Furthermore, I love those voided darts on the Arty general's pearlring (what a subtle way to ventilate).

Chas. :D
 
Do you know if there were any regulations for the use of pineapple and curly cue?

I know of nothing in writing old or modern on this. Its all Dave's fault. Still going hmmmmm......
 
Cyrus:

Thanks for posting to keep the discussion going. A few observations:

First, like Chas, I love the ventilated perlring on the guard artillery general's helmet; very cool! Perhaps a thread on all of the different ventilation systems and configurations would be in order...

Second, your foot guard is kinda intrigueing. You have a "standard" grenadier plate (note the "Koenig" is under the star as opposed to being visible on typical guard eagles) with a guard star afixed to it. I have never seen this before and I'm a little sceptical that the star wasn't added later.

Third, the fluted spike on your reserve 1.GRzF is the "bavarian style" vs. the "prussian style".

Regards

Dave
 
Dave,

I agree the ventilation on the Grd Art helmet is pretty neat. I traded in this helmet couple of years ago.

The Ft Grd plate is split prong type and I am hesitant to take it off for pictures. Grd star is attached through two punched holes. I noticed this when I took off the plate few years ago to polish the helmet. But I agree with you I think this plate was meant for Grnd officer and late on was modified for Ft Grd.

The spike on the 1st Ft Grd is rusted inside the spike base and it does not come off. I know if does not have the typical rounded base of the general spike, but I have seen examples of this type spike on Prussian General helmets in various texts. I am not concerned about this.

Thanks for pointing these out.
C
 
Joe!!

I found it!! The elusive reference that describes the DR1 (and DR3) grenadier eagle with a chicken! It is in "Casques A Pointe" Book 2, Page 45. Under 1854, is states that the large eagle of DR1 differs from the line grenadier plate in two points: the sword guard has a cross vs. an "S" and the ornament at the top of the sceptre has a eagle, as the guard eagle. Also, on page 50 it describes the DR3 as having a silver grenadier eagle like DR1.

Dave

Here is a pic of all three plates for reference:

[/b]
 
Joe and Dave: A very good and thought provoking thread. I offer the following for your consideration: Pietsch, volume 2, page 82 states that Dragoon regiments 1 and 3 wore the guard eagle without star with the eagle for DR3 in silver. Pietsch, volume 1, page 61 illustrates the guard eagle as having "bow tie" sword hilt and scepter with eagle.

One thing we all need to keep in the back of our minds concerning reference books with photos of helmets is that we should never assume all the helmets depicted in the various works to be absolutely correct. While the photos are helpful, recognized authorative text is in my opinion the best source for accurate information.

Reservist1
 
Res:

I don't think there is a conflict in these sources, and in fact, they all seem to say the same thing. Wouldn't a "guard eagle without a star" be a wide grenadier eagle which has an eagle on top of the scepter (vs an articoke) and a bow-tie hilt (vs curly-cue)? Why didn't the sources just state "a wide grenadier eagle" was used on DR1 and DR3? They certainly had both types of plates when these units were authorized to wear them. Now, as far as the bow-tie vs. the curly-cue, it seems there were quite a few inconsistancies even on guard plates as shown on a couple of earlier posts on this thread, so I'm not sure of what to make of that..

Dave
 
I found it!! The elusive reference that describes the DR1 (and DR3) grenadier eagle with a chicken!

Dave you have by far come closer than anyone has to date. However, as usual, I think all throw some dirt in the water to muddy things up.
First of all this is an 1854 statement according to Lacarde. As there were no real AKO changes to officer helmets after 1871(yes there were wappen AKO's but no DR1 that I'm aware of). There is some sort of regulation or something that we don't have that might specify this.

Second, and please, I have no ax to grind against Lacarde or anyone else, but I would like to see the AKO's of 1854. Perhaps Glenn can find them at the library in Münster. I have often been told that when people check Lacarde's AKO's the actual paperwork does not say what he transcribed. I do not know. But it does put me in a position of being a doubting Thomas and wanting to stick my fingers in the hole.

A very good and thought provoking thread.
.
I'm with reservist on this one. I had never noticed this before, you brought this up Dave, and it is great!

it seems there were quite a few inconsistancies even on guard plates
.
So true. I'm not sure we will ever get to the bottom of the differences between 1854 and the artifacts of 1914. And just to think my wife thinks I'm getting involved in obscure things.
 
Hi Dave: I don't think there is any conflict in the sources. I cited the Pietsch entries because most references rely heavily on his work. I have found the two Pietsch volumes to be the best and most accurate reference on the Prussian army for the pre WWI period.
I believe the reason Pietsch referred to the plates for DR1 and DR3 as being guard plates without star was to more clearly indicate that these two units had received special status.
There are indeed a fair number of Guard, DR1 and DR3 helmets around with grenadier plates instead of the "textbook" guard plate. The majority of these inconsistencies seem to occur on officer and other private purchase helmets. I believe some suppliers of private purchase items simply did not pay particularly close attention to all of the written specifications. If everything else about a helmet "talks to you" I do not see the inconsistency in an officer or private purchase guard vs. grenadier plate as a big deal.
If we were talking about issue helmets I think it would be a completely different story as issue Prussian helmets closely follow written specifications and directives concerning configuration.

All that said, if your DR1 helmet with the curly cue hilt keeps you awake at night just send it to me, I will give it a good home. That is one very nice helmet.

Reservist1
 
All that said, if your DR1 helmet with the curly cue hilt keeps you awake at night just send it to me, I will give it a good home. That is one very nice helmet.
I've gotta go along with this statement too.
Gus
PS. But send it to me
 
Hey guys:

I agree 100% with you all about having no definative reference (ie an AKO) which would confirm or refute a "special" eagle for DR1 and DR3. This whole question of a different plate was soley based on my observations and nothing else to support it. I am just happy that there is some mention about this eagle, at all. By the way Res and Gus, I was so distraught about the curly-cue hilt on my plate, I drilled holes in it so I could suspend it from a chain around my neck as a "ormanent" in ma' hood...Sorry.

Dave
 
reservist1 said:
I believe some suppliers of private purchase items simply did not pay particularly close attention to all of the written specifications. //// If we were talking about issue helmets I think it would be a completely different story as issue Prussian helmets closely follow written specifications and directives concerning configuration.

Thank you Herr Reservist1. Exactly what I have been saying for years.

Here is one you guys may find interesting, an officer's Wappen for Grenadier-zu-Pferd-Regt. Freiherr von Derfflinger (Neumärkisches) Nr.3. It was not silver-washed brass, it was silver-washed German silver (nickel, neu-silber, what-ever). I traded it away many years ago, as it was (Eee-ew!) an officer item. And now ironically I are one. I regret the poor photo, it is a scan of a 35mm print I took.

GRzP.jpg


dave mosher said:
I call it my "imperial bling bling"...

Oh my GAWD that is funny! Hahaha!
 
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