Bavarian Leib Pickelhaube

[Tony without Kaiser]

It’s the Wappen. Charles’ new helmet has a 1896 Foot Troops Wappen, which was never worn by officers. A soldier in Mannschaften ranks could wear almost any combinations of components on a purchased Eigentums-helm except for two:

• Pattern of Wappen
• Pattern of Kokarden

The three patterns of Wappen all solid Neusilber (nickle silver)

• 1886/87 Wappen (worn by all Troops and ranks),
• M1896 Wappen Mannschaften for Foot Troops (never by officers)
• 1914 Wappen for all Officers and all Mounted Troops.

 

[b.loree]

T: How about posting this in the wappen section as well? I for one did not know any of this.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello,
Concerning the Bavarian infantry helmets, after 1896, there is a very identifiable difference between officer's helmet and troop's helmet. It is the cruciform base. Here, flat scales, so "infantry" (and not horse-riders). Cruciform base, so necessarily an officer. (It is the same for the infantry of Württemberg.)
As regards the Bavarian Landkokarde, the Bavarian officers were exception to the rule, and one frequently sees the simple blue ring, but on a cockade of great dimension (standard 0fficer).




To make the difference with an Extra-Helm of one year old, here are the pictures of mine :


On a Bavarian infantry troop Extra-Helm Eigentum, never a cruciform point base, never a star, never a large cockade for an officer and with a nickel silver strapping.

In conclusion, Charles's helmet is indeed a KB ILR officer's helmet, but the plate should be either the large 1886 with leafy temples or the medium 1914 without the temples.

 

[Kaisersammler]

I don't know if my translation program is playing tricks on me. It's about the Bavarian Infantry Leib Regiment. In the photos shown are the fittings gold?
With the Leib Regiment, ALL fittings were silver.

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Charles is that an outline in the lacquer of a larger Bavarian Wappen? It looks like there was. As mentioned by Clovis 57, if there was an 1886 or 1914 officer Wappen on this helmet, then it would make sense.

 

[ccj]

Charles is that an outline in the lacquer of a larger Bavarian Wappen? It looks like there was. As mentioned by Clovis 57, if there was an 1886 or 1914 officer Wappen on this helmet, then it would make sense.

View attachment 33815

I need to look and see. That photo does seem to show an outline. I didn’t see that. I’ll take photos outside.

 

[JohnS3rd]

Charles
You have a wonderful helmet regardless of It’s status.
Best regards
John

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello,
Thanks to Tony for the close-up which shows that there was an exchange of a Leib "troop" plate instead of that of an officer .For this purpose, the M96 troop and M86 officer fixings are not at the same distance, there could be double drilling of the hull. Also no trigger guard in nickel- silver wire and leather wedge for officers, but studs and nuts.
Conclusion: beautiful Leib-Bavarian officer's helmet, but it deserves to find a large M86 or M14 plate in nickel-silver (see photo from Tony) to be perfect.

 

[ccj]

I’m going to look closer at the ghost of larger wappen and to see if 2 sets of holes. I may return it….

 

[ccj]

More photos. It’s possible the wappen has been there forever or nearly that long. 3 holes, not 4 so…..

It’s possible this was an enlisted, NCO, or Fähnrich upgraded to officer.

 

[Jeff R]

Really interesting Charles. Looks like it was originally fitted with a round spike base too? If this thing could talk, it probably has a fascinating story to tell!

 

[ccj]

Might it been altered for a newly promoted officer or an Offizierstellvertreter?

 

[ccj]

Hello all, I feel this a very attractive helmet but I’m curious what the overall consensus is after debate and additional photos. Is this a good helmet or should I return it to the seller?

Opinions are greatly appreciated

 

[RON]

Hmmm. Tough call... Like Jeff said above, if only this helmet could talk.
Personally, after seeing the non-matching wappen "ghost", I would return it. But this is very subjective...

 

[Amybellars]

Hello all, I feel this a very attractive helmet but I’m curious what the overall consensus is after debate and additional photos. Is this a good helmet or should I return it to the seller?

Opinions are greatly appreciated

Who did you buy it from

 

[Jeff R]

I'm far from an expert, but if it was me I'd be uncomfortable with the wappen ghosting but more uncomfortable with the circular spike base traces. Not sure what Bavarian helmet would have had a round-based spike and a squared visor? In it's current state, it's a very pretty helmet though. To quote Ronny - tough call.

 

[Amybellars]

I agreed with Jeff R for the feel on the helmet but if you did not buy from a reputable dealer or individual, returning may be difficult. I have experience where the seller refused to collect the item from the post office and in the end I could not receive my refund and I lost the good as well.

 

[ccj]

Dealer/seller said if can be returned and that its a 1914/wartime officers smaller wappen. He said its most likely for a Fahnrich and has not been altered with a new wappen. I looked very carefully and there does not appear ot be a ghost outline of a prior wappen all the way around. The dull outline seems to be in the left side. However, IDK how the spike would been changed from round to crusiform unless an officer's canditate or OYV wore a helmet with round base and then changed it.
Anyway, Im contemplating a return but its a very attractive helmet so Im torn.

 

[ccj]

Boxed up and shipping back. Seller, as expected offers return with refund.

Thanks for all the help on this one

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello.
A wise decision. The only plausible explanation would be a Feldwebel appointed Offizierstellvertreter at the front. But to prove this, he would have had to be identifiable and traceable.