Beamte helmet and questions

[nzef1940]

I have searched the forum and read a couple of threads re Beamte helmets and note there is not a lot of definitive reference material about.

My only question is why do some Prussian Beatme helmets have Wappens with mottos and some do not?

Thanks in advance!

Feel free to post images of your Beatme helmets also please.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm II]

I'm not entirely sure however just talking off the top of my head, I'd say that Unterbeampten do not have mottos, whereas Oberbeampten, as seen in this AOK listing, do have mottos.

That is my best guess anyhow.

 

[Naprawiacz]

I have searched the forum and read a couple of threads re Beamte helmets and note there is not a lot of definitive reference material about.

My only question is why do some Prussian Beatme helmets have Wappens with mottos and some do not?

Thanks in advance!

Feel free to post images of your Beatme helmets also please.

The small silver Wappenadler was only attached to Adler's tail by order of May 15, 1905, and was removed from the pike required by another officer when they were promoted to officers.Promotion opportunities for civil servants, were closely linked to years of military service. More than half of all civil servants came from the military. Soldiers in the rank of non-commissioned officer became eligible for civil service employment after twelve years of service. Is proof that the official once served in the army, and after going into the reserves became an official.These are just my suggestions and maybe Sandy will write more.

 

[nzef1940]

The small silver Wappenadler was only attached to Adler's tail by order of May 15, 1905, and was removed from the pike required by another officer when they were promoted to officers.Promotion opportunities for civil servants, were closely linked to years of military service. More than half of all civil servants came from the military. Soldiers in the rank of non-commissioned officer became eligible for civil service employment after twelve years of service. Is proof that the official once served in the army, and after going into the reserves became an official.These are just my suggestions and maybe Sandy will write more.

Most interesting, many thanks.

 

[JPT]

C'est vrai que c'est assez complexe. De plus vous ne montrez que la Prusse alors qu'il ya des fonctionnaires dans chaque état
Il y a des différences entre les statuts de civils travaillant pour l'armée et foncionnaires et hauts fonctionnaires militaires etc...

(casque d'Unterbeamte Prusse)
Ce qui explique peut être la présence de bandeau et celle du petit aigle ajouté ou pas
Il y avait des administratifs dans tout : artillerie, infanterie, cavalerie, ministère de la guerre, état major, ...
Selon mes sources, il doit y avoir des informations dans le fameux et couteux ensemble de livres Knötel H. & Pietsch, P. & Collas, Baron D.

Moi j'ai trouvé cela mais ca ne fait pas avancer beaucoup les choses :
" Source : Uniformenkunde - Das Deutsche Heer : Friedensuniformen bei Ausbruch des Weltkrieges - Tomes I-III.

Source : Études sur les uniformes - L'armée allemande : les uniformes en temps de paix au déclenchement de la guerre mondiale - Tomes I-III.

L'administration
des troupes étaient assurées par les payeurs, issus des anciens « comptables ». Les payeurs principaux et payeurs subalternes étaient des fonctionnaires militaires (fonctionnaires moyens), les payeurs inférieurs étaient des soldats. En général, pour chaque employé du gouvernement, il y avait un payeur principal qui était responsable de la gestion des vêtements, pour chaque état-major de bataillon ou de département, il y avait un payeur et un payeur junior qui était responsable de la « gestion de la trésorerie ». Les régiments de cavalerie n'avaient qu'un seul officier payeur (Zahlmeister-Beamten) et un payeur (Unterzahlmeister), tandis que les bataillons de pionniers avaient deux officiels et un payeur.

Il était obligatoire pour tous les payeurs (Zahlmeister) de porter des uniformes à tout moment, comme c'était le cas pour les officiers. Uniforme de l'administration de l'hôpital, du bureau des provisions, de l'administration de la garnison et des fonctionnaires du bureau de l'habillement, mais avec des insignes en tissu blanc au lieu des insignes bleu bleut, jaune citron, bleu clair ou rouge ponceau. Cependant, les plus hauts fonctionnaires avaient des boutons d'argent, qui étaient également toujours lisses - en tant que responsables militaires - et en conséquence des croissants d'épaulettes en argent, des épaulettes, des tresses de passants et des pièces d'aisselles bleues. . . . . argenté.
Le casque avait une visière avant et arrière arrondie et une pointe lisse sur une embase ronde, un aigle avec un dispositif et un petit aigle ajouté à la plaque.

 

[JPT]

View attachment 48858

 

[nzef1940]

Thanks, translation:

It's true that it's quite complex. Furthermore you only show Prussia even though there are civil servants in each state

There are differences between the statuses of civilians working for the army and civil servants and senior military officials, etc.

helmet of Unterbeamte Prussia)

Which perhaps explains the presence of the headband and that of the little eagle added or not

There were administrative staff in everything: artillery, infantry, cavalry, ministry of war, general staff, etc.

According to my sources, there must be information in the famous and expensive set of books Knötel H. & Pietsch, P. & Collas, Baron D.

I found this but it doesn't help things much:

" Source: Uniformenkunde - Das Deutsche Heer: Friedensuniformen bei Ausbruch des Weltkrieges - Volumes I-III.

Source: Studies on uniforms - The German army: uniforms in peacetime at the outbreak of the World War - Volumes I-III.

The administration of the troops was carried out by the paymasters, from the former “accountants”. The main payers and junior payers were military officials (middle civil servants), the lower payers were soldiers. Generally, for each government employee there was a senior paymaster who was responsible for clothing management, for each battalion or department staff there was a paymaster and a junior paymaster who was responsible for " cash management”. Cavalry regiments had only one paymaster (Zahlmeister-Beamten) and one paymaster (Unterzahlmeister), while pioneer battalions had two officers and one paymaster.

It was obligatory for all paymasters (Zahlmeiter) to wear uniforms at all times, as was the case for officers. Uniform of the hospital administration, the provisions office, the garrison administration and the clothing office officials, but with white fabric badges instead of the bluish blue, lemon yellow, blue badges clear or culvert red. However, the highest officials had silver buttons, which were also always smooth - as military officials - and accordingly silver epaulet crescents, epaulettes, passers-by braids and blue armpit pieces . . . silver.

The helmet had a rounded front and rear visor and a smooth tip on a round base, an eagle with a device and a small eagle added to the plate

 

[nzef1940]

The ersatz felt Beamte is interesting!

 

[JPT]

(Source Senon89)

 

[Naprawiacz]

(Source Senon89)

This second photo is from my collection.Pickelhaube, imperial stage manager (or supervisor) of military bands.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Very complicated, very confusing. Little or no A.K.O. Other questions exist.
For brass and sometimes nickel silver fittings? Why sometimes a small eaglet with the color reversed and sometimes none? Why do we sometimes see a cross-shaped base, with a square visor, and sometimes a round one?
And vice versa.
I find it hard to define a doctor's, veterinarian's, pharmacist's, dentist's, accountant's, magistrate's helmet....

 

[nzef1940]

Very complicated, very confusing. Little or no A.K.O. Other questions exist.
For brass and sometimes nickel silver fittings? Why sometimes a small eaglet with the color reversed and sometimes none? Why do we sometimes see a cross-shaped base, with a square visor, and sometimes a round one?
And vice versa.
I find it hard to define a doctor's, veterinarian's, pharmacist's, dentist's, accountant's, magistrate's helmet....

Thanks and agree, I was thinking similar thoughts!

 

[Glennj]

it is a wee bit convoluted but in essence is as follows: before the AKO of 15 May 1905, not all officials were required to be saluted by NCOS and soldiers. Those more senior officials and other categories such as the Zahlmeister, veterinary officials etc were entitled to a salute. This was identified by the wear (in Prussia) of a small eagle between the two cockades on the cap. Those officials not entitled to a salute such as garrison, hospital and provisions offices officials and more junior officials of the intendance and justice branches were identified by a small shield on the cap. Up to this time, no distinguishing insignia was worn on the helmet.

Following the 15 May 1905 order all officials with the equivalence of commissioned rank were afforded the courtesy of a salute from NCOs and soldiers and were distinguished as such with the introduction of the small eagle etc for all these officials and also the wear of such an eagle on the helmet.

Regards
Glenn

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Thank you Clenn, for clarifying this AKO.

 

[JPT]

C'est un peu compliqué mais en substance, cela se résume comme suit : avant l'AKO du 15 mai 1905, tous les fonctionnaires n'étaient pas tenus d'être salués par les NCOS et les soldats. Les fonctionnaires plus haut placés et d'autres catégories telles que le Zahlmeister, les fonctionnaires vétérinaires, etc. avaient droit à un salut. Cela était identifié par le port (en Prusse) d'un petit aigle entre les deux cocardes sur la casquette. Les fonctionnaires qui n'avaient pas droit au salut, comme les fonctionnaires de la garnison, des hôpitaux et des bureaux d'approvisionnement et les fonctionnaires plus subalternes des services d'intendance et de justice, étaient identifiés par un petit bouclier sur la casquette. Jusqu'à cette époque, aucun insigne distinctif n'était porté sur le casque.

Suite à l'ordonnance du 15 mai 1905, tous les officiers ayant l'équivalent d'un grade d'officier bénéficièrent de la courtoisie d'un salut de la part des sous-officiers et des soldats et furent distingués comme tels par l'introduction du petit aigle etc pour tous ces officiers et également par le port d'un tel aigle sur le casque.

Salutations
Glenn

Maybe but that doesn't hold true for the photo of the felt artillery troop helmet that I posted previously

 

[nzef1940]

And for me also, this question:

Why do we sometimes see a cross-shaped spike base, with a square visor, and sometimes a round shaped spike base with a round visor and vice versa.

 

[JPT]

And for me also, this question:

Why do we sometimes see a cross-shaped spike base, with a square visor, and sometimes a round shaped spike base with a round visor and vice versa.

and why sometimes with a blindfold and sometimes not. Why with the addition of a reserve cross or not (Reserve civil servants?). Why silver or gold plates ?

 

[JPT]

 

[Glennj]

Why do we sometimes see a cross-shaped spike base, with a square visor, and sometimes a round shaped spike base with a round visor and vice versa.

I wrote this on the forum in 2011:

"As a basic rule of thumb, most Prussian Military Officials and Civil Officials of the Military Administration wore a Pickelhaube with square visor and cruciform spike base. There were some exceptions:

Zahlmeister
Armee-Musikinspizient
Veterinary Officials pre 1910 and those Reserve Veterinary officials still serving in that capacity after 1910."


Regards
Glenn

 

[CLOVIS 57]

I'll attach photos when I get home.
For trim colors,:In general:
Police, and Fire Officer, are in silver nickel silver.
Customs, and Gendarmerie are in gold brass.